hall o' fame nominees

The 2023 Rock & Roll Hal of Fame nominees have been announced.
The White Stripes
Missy Elliott
Joy Division/New Order
Sheryl Crow
Cyndi Lauper
Warren Zevon
Willie Nelson
Kate Bush
Rage Against the Machine
Soundgarden
A Tribe Called Quest
Iron Maiden
George Michael
The Spinners.

Not a bad list at all. JD/NO FINALLY nominated, as is Zevon. I'm pretty meh on Sheryl Crow, but as mainstream 90s acts go, she beats the hell out of Matchbox 20. And if there must be a slot dedicated to "aging Country artist with tangential ties to R&R but who will sell tickets to the induction ceremony," Willie is a legend.

They usually induct around seven of the nominees. If it were up to me, from this class it would be:
Kate
Joy Order
Five of the rest. Pretty much all equally worthy and I'm not going to have too much of a fit one way or the other on any of them.

Then I'd sneak King Crimson and Giorgio Moroder in through the Musical Excellence loophole, put Roger Dean and Peter Saville in via Non-Performers to get people in who made actual artistic contributions to the form and rescue that category from corporate suits, and use Early Influences to get Link Wray in.

Kind of surprised at the continued absence of Mariah Carey from the nominations. I know she wouldn't garner much enthusiasm in these parts, but judging by the Hall's own criteria and history, she's probably the most blatant snub currently ongoing. She's been eligible since 2015 but to my knowledge never been nominated, despite being the biggest commercial success of her decade of the 90s, always having had a hand in writing and producing her own material, and would've been much more adventurous had her label (who was also her husband) allowed her to be - witness her recording and releasing a secret indie-rock album in the mid-90s. So the fact that she's yet to be nominated makes me wonder if Tommy Mottolla has a big pull in the nominating process.

Apparently, it was Billy Joel who managed to get Warren Zevon nominated - he'd been his biggest advocate to the nominating committee for years. So good for him. He seems to also have been a huge booster for Cyndi Lauper's nomination.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2023 12:15PM by breno.

Good god… if Kate B can’t get in after the year she just had, it’s never going to happen.

I’d have to put George Michael in. Songwriter, singer, performed all instruments, visual presence, associated with the big names like Elton and Aretha, incredibly well-known hits…. maybe he’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but he would be the obvious pick for me.

Nothing against Rage or soundgarden, but if they get in ahead of Maiden that just ain’t right. To this day I still see folks in Iron Maiden tshirts out and about.

Willie, like Dolly, probably just feels funny about being on the list.

> Nothing against Rage or soundgarden, but
> if they get in ahead of Maiden that just ain’t right.

Hey, Carly Simon got in as a full-fledged performer -- a singer whose stage fright was so legendary, she even sent a pre-recorded performance to SNL, rather than step onto the NBC stage in front of an audience. Judas Priest, meanwhile, had to settle for the award for "musical excellence" (translation: "We don't really like or respect you enough to induct you, but here's a consolation prize. Now go away, and tell your fans to leave us alone").



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2023 05:59PM by Delvin.

This is honestly a really good list of nominees. Like, startlingly good.

I would immediately give the go-ahead to Joy Division/New Order (and I don't love Joy Division!), Kate Bush, Zevon, Nelson, and George Michael.

I am not a listener of the heavier stuff, but Iron Maiden should clearly merit inclusion on longevity and impact. I am very meh about Soundgarden, RATM, and the White Stripes.

I like Sheryl Crow and Cyndi Lauper a lot, but I don't know about Hall of Fame? And the Spinners don't seem like they are significant enough; I can't remember too many of their tunes.

Missy Elliott is a legend in her space, but I just don't understand "Rock and Roll." She has fewer rock connections than many past R&B and hip-hop awardees.

> The Spinners don't seem like they are significant enough; I can't remember too many of their tunes.

The Spinners actually were quite successful during the '70s, with a solid string of hits, all co-written and produced by Thom Bell (who passed away in December). "I'll Be Around," "Games People Play," "Rubberband Man" and "Then Came You" were pretty choice. Lead singer Philippe Wynne was a standout among the soul vocal groups of the day -- one who could throw it down as the leader and frontman, or blend into the ensemble with ease. (And Wynne is member of a club even more rarefied than the "27 Club" -- a musician who died onstage.)

Not that I’m a Spinnerologist, but ‘working my way back to you’ was on the radio all the time when I was discovering pop music.

The Spinners were the most Motown-sounding of the 1970s soul groups. They'd be a better choice than a lot of previous inductees.

I remember that one! I think they were probably chart-toppers before I was listening to much pop radio.

(first time poster, hi everyone!)

Surprisingly good list of nominees, except for Sheryl Crow (okay but always left me cold) I think everyone else has a pretty good argument for induction even though I'm not a huge fan of every single one of them.

The Spinners should've been in decades ago, and at this point it may be tough. It probably doesn't help that only one of the original members is still alive. For my money, they're the greatest Philly Soul group of all-time, and it's strange to me that the only representatives of Philly Soul in the Hall besides the O'Jays are Hall & Oates.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2023 11:17PM by belfast.

My wish list?

Joy Division/New Order (long overdue)
Cyndi Lauper (a real trailblazer, in her own way, which is more than I'd say for Sheryl Crow)
Warren Zevon
Kate Bush (if it doesn't happen this year, then it never will)
Soundgarden
Iron Maiden
The Spinners

Why do I have a feeling that either Zevon, Maiden or JD will get the "musical excellence" award ...?

I would've been reluctant to vote for Lauper in the past. It really comes down to one great album she's never come close to matching. But it made an enormous impact, and listening to it now, it's held up really well - and lately the Hall of Fame has inducted quite a few artists who've done much less (especially last year).

And welcome, Belfast! Looking forward to your contributions to the banter here.

And somehow, from that solid list of nominees, they managed to induct almost the least inspiring slate (to me) that they could've. I'm very happy that Kate made it, but after that, meh. RATM and Missy Elliott are okay, I guess - I've never cared enough about Rage to be able to identify a single song of theirs, and while Missy is swell, it bugs me that she was inducted in her first year of eligibility. The Spinners are great, but feel like one last bit of Boomer refusal to just let go. Sheryl Crow has never, ever, ever been even the least bit interesting, beyond the fact that she may have been (very) indirectly related to two different suicides. George Michael - I guess I don't mind that.

Willie Nelson bugs the hell out of me for the same reason Dolly did. Country and Rock are related, but not synonymous. Country musicians who actually influenced the development of Rock are fair inductions. Country artists that became famous after Rock was a thing but never played anything other than Country? No. This is just inducting famous people for the sake of them being famous. You want to put Country musicians in the RRHOF? Buck Owens or the Maddox Brothers and Rose fit the bill. Dolly and Willie don't. Nor will Garth and Shania when either of them are nominated next year. (Waylon will never be, due to being dead and therefore unable to sell tickets for the ceremony.)

Mostly I'm just pissed that Joy D/New O didn't make the cut. If they had, I'd be able to retire from giving a damn about the whole thing.

The Musical Excellence category has settled into its role as the Veteran's Committee, inducting obviously worthy people the voters at large have proven too dense to induct outright, so Chaka Khan is finally in. As are Al Kooper and Bernie Taupin, which is fine.

Link Wray finally made it via Early Influences, which is fair enough. DJ Kool Herc also got in through that door, also worthy.

Don Cornelius nabbed the non-performer slot for the year, and I've no belly ache with that. There are vast categories of worthy people who are deserving of getting in in that category that have never been tapped - visual artists like Rick Griffin, Mouse & Kelly, Roger Dean, Peter Saville, Vaughan Oliver; critics and writers like Lester Bangs, Greil Marcus, Ira fucking Robbins, Peter Guralnik - but Cornelius was a worthy and overdue choice. At least it wasn't another damn industry suit or Bruce Springsteen's lawyer.

Anyhow, very happy that Kate is in. Dunno if she'll brave severe ear pain to make it to the ceremony - I somehow doubt it but you never know. I just hope that they come up with someone worthy to do her induction speech and not do something stupid like having one of the kids from Stranger Things do it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2023 01:31PM by breno.

They should just change the name to the Popular Music Hall of Fame, because that's what it is at this point. The relationship between rock and country is iffy, but it's existed since the start of rock'n'roll and persisted to the present. Sheryl Crow sounds rather dull to me, but she's gone through a reappraisal and her influence looms over recent Americana.

For heavy music in the R'n'R Hall of Fame, Rage Against the Machine are a far safer bet than Iron Maiden. They were always much hipper, while the latter still reek of D and D playing, denim jacket-wearing teenage nerdiness (and I like them!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2023 09:34PM by steevee.

Lucinda Williams would've been a far better pick than Crow. Of course, Williams has never been nominated even though she's been making records much longer. I get Crow gets much more radio play, but her music is so bland and harmless, even at its most influential it simply maintains the status quo among generic pop music devoid of risk or any distinguished personality. It's a different story with Williams - I look at the best Americana being made now and it's all deeply influenced by Williams by their own admission: Jason Isbell, Angel Olsen, Sharon Van Etten, Waxahatchee, etc.

Supposedly the new head of the HOF pushed in a lot of C̶l̶e̶a̶r̶ ̶C̶h̶a̶n̶n̶e̶l̶ iHeart programmers which makes the inductees of the last couple of years even less surprising.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2023 10:31PM by belfast.

Iron Maiden not being in is criminal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2023 12:30PM by Bip.

In the fan vote, I tried to vote every day for Kate, JD/NO, Zevon, Iron Maiden and A Tribe Called Quest. Kate is the only one to make it in.

Nearly the same fan ballot from me except I voted for the Spinners instead of Zevon.

Vaughn Oliver! Yes! He did some amazing work with artists on the 4AD label, including many of Cocteau Twins' earlier releases.

I thought they would never vote in Linda Ronstadt, it took 20 years after she first became eligible. She was one of the biggest female stars of the 70's, and, as mentioned above, she should be in solely as an influencer.

One artist I'd like to see in the Hall is William Orbit...maybe not on music alone, but his escapades behind the mixing board are most worthy....he engineered and produced records for several artists already in the Hall, including Madonna (he produced her comeback album, "Ray Of Light," which I have since forgiven him for).

Another worthy (in my estimation, at least) is Gary Numan. He may not have been very popular in America, but he dominated the British charts for years and was incredibly influential, including bringing synth pop into the mainstream (with deferential nods to Kraftwerk, already in the Hall, Ultravox and OMD).

As for the Hall itself, I'm a bit ambivalent towards it, especially because there are so many artists who deserve recognition for their music, but only get a brief mention in some of the smaller music magazines. About 2/3 of the music I listen to aren't from the Hall anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2023 06:22AM by Fleeingbandit.

Most of the music from that list is so far removed from Rock & Roll, at this point, they might as well nominate Beethoven, Mozart, Gershwin and Emerson, Lake & Palmer. That would open the door for my vote.

Klaatu (Gort returns, with a band this time) Barada Nikto!

Long Live Politzania

As facts are few and far between hypothesis denies all logic as to what precisely, er, led to her demise. For what appears sheer grandiosity, no legacy remains except her crumbling ruins on which these words were found engraved:
Politzania
Politzania
Long live Politzania
Politzania
Politzania
God save Politzania
Now these ancient Politzanians as far as archeologists have traced had most thoroughly convinced themselves they were a superior race. Quite a ridiculous notion, granted, however if we assume her sister rivals rose to quell such monstrous claims, I most humbly submit her unpleasant end is satisfactorily explained.
Politzania
Politzania
Long live Politzania
Politzania
Politzania
God save Politzania
Those citizens who questioned, those suspect harborers of doubt, were brought before a panel of the Ministry of Health.
They were tested and encephalographed
'Til rendered quite insane
When in accordance with the laws
They reprocessed their brains
They reprocessed their brains ha ha ha ha
They reprocessed their brains



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2023 06:53PM by STEVE.

Some abysmal nominees this year that would've been taken as a prank 20 years go. Such is the influence of iHeart-employed committee members.

A Tribe Called Quest, Eric B. & Rakim, Sinéad O’Connor and Mary J. Blige are easily my four favorites, they're slam dunks in my book. Most of them are long overdue - it's ridiculous it took O'Connor's death to finally get her a nomination, and I wish Tribe had been inducted when Phife was still alive. (Had they done so in their first year of eligibility, he probably could have made the ceremony.)

This year, it looks like they're letting people vote for seven instead of five, in which case I'd probably vote for Sade, Jane's Addiction and Oasis.

Cher deserves plenty of honors, she's a great film star and a beloved cultural icon, but her records are terrible.
Kool & the Gang's "Hollywood Swinging" and especially "Jungle Boogie" deserve some kind of honor, but I don't think they have a great legacy beyond those two cuts.
A lot of Foreigner, probably the overwhelming majority of their music, sounds awful to me. But I can see the merits in "Urgent" (with heavy contributions from Thomas Dolby, Junior Walker and Mutt Lange) and "I Want to Know What Love Is." Those two singles probably deserve an honor of some kind, but this isn't a very good band, much less a great one.
Ozzy's already in, he shouldn't be inducted yet again for a mediocre solo career.
This is going to sound harsher than I'd like, but Mariah Carey is exactly the kind of music that should not be inducted. It's not because a lack of talent or even taste - she clearly had a stunning voice and unexpected preferences in terms of what she'd listen to. But I feel like she allowed everything that makes music meaningful art be sacrificed or thoroughly compromised in order to turn her work into a money-making enterprise. Having grown up around her records, they always seemed trendy without being innovative and bland and impersonal even when they're ostensibly about personal feelings. In hindsight, it feels like risk-averse calculation. The payoff was it made her enormously wealthy and if that's what she wanted, that's fine, it's not like she was making weapons, peddling unsafe drugs or egregiously destroying the environment and she deserves the riches for pulling it off. But I don't think commerce should be rewarded as if it was some great musical legacy.

The rest I don't even want to talk about.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2024 03:32AM by belfast.

I think of Carey and Whitney Houston as great talents who never lived up to their potential because their labels pressed them into releasing bland music. Both have made exciting songs ("Fantasy" and "I Want to Dance With Somebody"), but little of it resonates with me the way TLC, Janet Jackson or Mary J. Blige do. Carey's melisma inspired a generation of singers who have technical skill but no emotion behind it, especially on reality TV competition shows. However, I can recognize that valuing a degree of roughness is a perspective coming from rock, rather than pop, fandom and there's been a major critical reassessment of both singers. At this point, Carey seems historically important and popular enough that she's bound to get voted in.

Cher's Dusty Springfield-inspired album of rock and R&B covers, 3614 JACKSON HIGHWAY, is pretty strong, especially "I Walk on Gilded Splinters." It's an outlier on the Rough Trade record store's "Essentials" canon!

There's no doubt Tommy Mottola and Clive Davis would have pushed them in that direction, but that's also a common problem with all popular music, and one of the things that end up defining great artists is how they overcome or break away from those commercial pressures. Maybe not all the time, but at least enough times to put out a record of tremendous merit. The change Janet Jackson made with the aptly-titled Control is a perfect example of that - fired her own father/manager who definitely did not take it well, found new collaborators in Jam and Lewis and made what was then an unconventional-sounding record that, according to Jackson, wanted to be "THE Black album of all time." I don't think Hall & Oates were all that great as much as I enjoy them, but even they sporadically pushed everyone aside to take big risks, whether it's collaborating with Todd Rundgren on War Babies or Hall working with Robert Fripp on Sacred Songs despite Mottola's opposition. I don't deny a label or manager will make it tough on anyone who decides to do something risky, but those are the high standards that need to be met if someone wants to be recognized as a great artist who deserves to be mentioned with Chuck Berry, Bob Dylan, Aretha Franklin or Nirvana. Someone who didn't want to do anything new, didn't want to challenge their audience and didn't want to make any controversial or at least subversive statements challenging what was wrong with the world shouldn't be viewed in the same way as them. Having said that, Houston was in on her first belated nomination, so it's almost a given Carey will get in.

I will definitely check out 3614 JACKSON HIGHWAY!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2024 03:29PM by belfast.

I went ahead and cast a vote for Oasis, despite giving little more than the most minimal damn about them and their attendant bullshit, because I saw that Andy Bell would be one of the inducted band members and I figured Oasis being the vehicle for likely the only shoegazer who would ever be inducted into the hall of fame would be proper penance for their role in killing off the original shoegaze wave 30 years ago.

But voting one time is likely all the effort I'm likely to put into this slate of nominees. I don't actually have an issue with any of them, but (aside from Sinead and a Tribe)* it sure feels like choosing between taupe, eggshell and ecru or being asked to get excited about lettuce.

Mostly I'm grateful that Garth Brooks was not amongst the nominees, as I was 85% positive that after the last two years they'd permanently set aside a slot for "country star who is really, really popular and can sell tickets to the induction ceremony."


*EDIT: And Sade. I keep forgetting she/they (don't know if the nomination is for the person or the band) got the nod. I agree it's a deserved nomination, but still feels like a b-team nomination.

EDIT EDIT: I have no doubt that if the nominating process had taken place two or three weeks later, Tracy Chapman would've made the list and likely would be inducted. Now we'll just have to see if the current outpouring of love for her sustains itself until next year..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2024 10:08AM by breno.

I saw some pretty strong arguments in favor of Kool & The Gang based on their '70s funk work, so I gave them another try. I don't think they ever made anything that feels like a truly great album even in this era, but those early and mid '70s albums aren't bad either and when you collect their best moments together, you can piece together that great album you wish they had in them. Spin Their Top Hits is nearly it, but they probably could've programmed a double-LP that I'd put up there with, say, The Very Best of Rufus with Chaka Khan or the Ohio Players' Gold - none of those groups may have recorded a masterpiece of an LP, but again you can definitely assemble one from their best tracks. So I'm more than happy to admit I underrated them, and when I went to vote for them in the fan vote, I was delighted to see I broke a tie with Mariah Carey and pushed them into the final winning slot. (That was an hour ago though. Checking back, I see Carey has pulled ahead again.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2024 11:00PM by belfast.

Still no J. Mascis?

And it still too soon to ask about Operation Ivy?

FWIW, I just found this month-old article where they interview two anonymous voters.

[www.vulture.com]

Inductees are:
Mary J. Blige
Cher
Foreigner
Peter Frampton
Kool & the Gang
Dave Matthews Band
Ozzy Osbourne
A Tribe Called Quest

And some wild committee picks...

For "Musical Excellence":

Jimmy Buffett (!)
MC5 (of course they had to wait until Kramer died)
Dionne Warwick
Norman Whitfield

For "Musical Influence":

Alexis Korner
John Mayall
Big Mama Thornton

And Suzanne de Passe of Motown is this year's business exec induction



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2024 09:00PM by belfast.

That's sixteen people being inducted/honored. Depending on how many surviving band members perform and how long the speeches are, it tends to be at least an hour per inductee at the ceremony. The one time I attended took between six and seven hours to conclude for five acts and a couple of non-performing inductees. I can't imagine the grueling slog this year's ceremony will be. Good luck to anyone who braves it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2024 10:20AM by Michael Toland.

Good for Frampton

How the hell is Cher not in the ROR HoF? She released her first album in '65 and she had a number of hits throughout the years. I get that there's politics involved behind the selection process (hello, Jann Werner, I could launch into a diatribe about that, but perhaps another time when I'm not listening to RATM), but she should have been inducted 20 years ago. This is why I don't pay much attention to any awards shows, they are a sham.

Musical Excellence - Jimmy Buffet
Musical Influence - Big Mama Thornton



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2024 05:38AM by Fleeingbandit.

According to Joel Peresman, president of the RRHoF Foundation, the Award for Musical Excellence "gives us flexibility to dive into some things and recognize some people who might not ordinarily get recognized." This includes a lot of artists whose fans have been clamoring for years. It's become a way for the HoF to induct artists that they can't muster the majority vote to induct in the Performer category. Basically, it says, "As a voting body, we don't really think you merit inclusion, but your fans just won't get off our backs. So here's an also-ran award. Now please just go away."

The inclusion of Jimmy Buffett comes as a bit of a surprise to me. The guy doesn't have a history of being nominated and passed over; I suspect most HoF voters wouldn't even consider him eligible for an Award for Musical Adequacy. But now that he's checked into his eternal Margaritaville, this award from the HoF seems almost like a pre-emptive strike -- getting his induction over and done with before the Parrothead Nation has a chance to squawk too loudly.

Still no Dinosaur, Jr.

FWIW, the Vulture article I linked to above notes:

As one of [the long-time voters we interviewed] urges us to remember about the Rock Hall: “They don’t have rules. There are no rules. They make up their own rules.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2024 02:37PM by belfast.

I'm not as cynical towards the Award for Musical Excellence route in as Delvin is. I think all the sports hall of fames have veterans' committees whose purpose is to make sure players who obviously deserve admission but never quite make it in due to quirks in voting do get in. I don't think that's the original purpose of the Musical Excellence thing - I think it was intended more for people that would never actually get nominated in the artist category but who undeniably should be there, like members of the Wrecking Crew. But if it's become the veteran's committee and sees that there are always going to be 7 or 8 artists getting more votes than the MC5 but it's a travesty if the MC5 isn't there, then I think that's swell.

As of this induction class, the TP artists enshrined is as follows (and I'm using the one indisputable measure if someone is a "TP artist" - do they have an entry on this site? I'm sure most people would agree that the Who more embodies the TP spirit than, say, Sheryl Crow. But Sheryl Crow has an entry here. The Who does not. I'm going in generally the order of induction.):

Neil Young
Frank Zappa
David Bowie
Pink Floyd
Velvet Underground
Ramones
Talking Heads
Clash
Elvis Costello
Prince
Police
Pretenders
U2
Blondie
Sex Pistols
Grandmaster Flash
REM
Patti Smith
Leonard Cohen
Madonna
Metallica
Run DMC
Stooges
Tom Waits
Beastie Boys
Guns N Roses
Red Hot Chili Peppers
Public Enemy
Peter Gabriel
Nirvana
Joan Jett
Lou Reed
Cheap Trick
NWA
Pearl Jam
Tupac
The Cars
LL Cool J
The Cure
Radiohead
Roxy Music
Depeche Mode
Nine Inch Nails
Notorious BIG
Green Day
Foo Fighters
Go-Gos
Todd Rundgren
Duran Duran
Kraftwerk
Eminem
Eurythmics
Kate Bush
Sheryl Crow
Link Wray (a TP artist via his partnership with Robert Gordon and not his own groundbreaking stuff, but he's here)
George Michael
Rage Against the Machine
A Tribe Called Quest
Dave Matthews
MC5

I don't think I missed anyone, but I may've. Interesting that, aside from Mariah Carey, all the rejects this year were TP artists, using the metric of if they have an entry on this site. Other inductees that could easily be TP artists if anyone ever got around to writing an entry would be Alice Cooper, T Rex , Parliament-Funkadelic and Missy Elliott.


TP artists nominated but not yet inducted, plus my VERY SCIENTIFIC guesses at the percentage chance they will ever be nominated again and if they will be inducted if they are. (The method is complete guesswork based on observation of how things have gone in the past.) There are no outright zeroes, since anything can happen - such as the first band below ever having been nominated in the first place. Also note, my percentages don't reflect who I think SHOULD get in. Just my impression of how voters gonna vote.

Bad Brains (Chance of ever being nominated again: 3%/Chance of induction if re-nominated: 0.9%)
Afrika Bambaata (0.5%/0.3% - pretty close to impossible, as I believe he got pretty convincingly Me Tooed)
Beck (99%/95% - the establishment loves Beck)
Devo (70%/45%)
Eric B & Rakim (75%/90%, via Musical Excellence)
Jane's Addiction (60%/60%)
Joy Division/New Order (90%/75%)
Lenny Kravitz (70%/75%)
Cyndi Lauper (65%/50%)
Los Lobos (5%/2%)
Motorhead (55%/40%)
New York Dolls (50%/25% - I think they have a good shot at being nominated again. I'm not sold they'll ever have the votes or the committee support to get in)
Oasis (50%/30% - they got nominated, were predictably dicks about it. Will be nominated once or twice more, but likely will be unenshrined)
Sinead O'Connor (60%/49% - didn't make it in this year despite being freshly dead. Though it's possible people thought FFS, we put Kate Bush in last year, now they're asking us to put another arty banshee from the British isles in? Not this year)
Replacements (75%/39% - they'll be nominated again eventually, but it'll still be an uphill battle getting in)
Sade (75%/70% - I think people will warm up to the idea of inducting her/them each time they get re-nominated)
Smiths (48%/22% - Morrissey has become the wrong kind of controversial and likely scuttled their chances with his big mouth)
Sting (10%/3% -he'll have to be content with being a one-time inductee with the Police.)
Soundgarden (90%/85%)
White Stripes (90%/90%)

And Warren Zevon, not technically a TP artist, but spiritually one (79%/58%)


And now, the longest list, TP artists or TP adjacent artists who have never been nominated but seem to me to have a more than Zero chance of being nominated someday, though in some cases not much more than zero.

Marianne Faithfull (20%/15% - the drive to induct more women might turn the nominating committee's gaze to her)
Love (7%/.07%)
13th Floor Elevators (8%/1% - Love & the Elevators could possibly get nominations if the committee decides to give the 60s one last look before closing the book on the decade. So could Herman's Hermits and the Monkees)
Captain Beefheart (30%/10% - wouldn't be surprised by a nomination, would be surprised by an induction, unless the Early Influences committe sneaks him in)
Can (1%/0.3% - maaaayyyyyybeeeee a krautrock enthusiast lands on the nominating committee some year. But very unlikely)
King Crimson (25%/45% - probably have more of a chance of getting in if nominated than being nominated in the first place. And what a headache it would be to figure out a roster to induct. Fripp and Levin for sure, probably Bruford, Belew, Lake and MacDonald, but God only knows who else. More likely Fripp gets Musical Excellenced in.)
Yoko Ono (2%/.001% - more deserving than any of the Beatles solo, will never get inducted due to implacable idiocy on the part of the majority)
Nick Drake (5%/5%)
Sparks (1%/0.09% - if they didn't get a look in the year of The Sparks Brothers and Annette, chances are very slim they ever will)
Mott the Hoople (25%/25% - bless Def Leppard's hearts, they tried to goose a nomination by getting Ian Hunter to come out and sing "All the Young Dudes" with them at their induction. It didn't work, but I wouldn't rule out a nomination one of these years)
Big Star (50%/30% - they'll probably be nominated someday. Likely won't get in, though. But I said that about Roxy and T Rex...)
Blue Oyster Cult (2%/0.5% Anything's possible. Not very likely, though)
Grace Jones (35%/25% - a perennial on "Most unforgivable snubs" lists)
Iggy solo (15%/15%)
Television (1%/0.1%)
Buzzcocks (5%/3%)
Siouxsie and the Banshees (30%/25% - Female inductee possibility, and their cult is growing. May not be nominated in the near future, but someday)
B-52s - (75%/80%)
Gang of Four (2%/1%)
Robert Palmer (3%/1% - would stand more of a chance if he'd neglected to die 20 years ago)
X (2%/2%)
Raincoats (14%/4% - more beloved as legends than they were when they existed. but the kind of cult artist the HOF would pat themselves on the back for nominating)
Black Flag (35%/15%)
Dead Kennedys (4%/0.7%)
Human League (3%/1% - probably not much love going to be extended to synthpop beyond Depeche Mode)
Violent Femmes (5%/15% - another bunch I think would have more chance of being inducted if nominated than being nominated in the first place)
Nick Cave (40%/50% - his frightening intensity has mellowed into beloved elder statesman status)
Billy Idol (5%/5% - not likely, but he is a new wave icon who might eke out some support)
Yazoo (25%/12% - have stealthily become beloved enough that a nomination wouldn't be a huge surprise)
Culture Club (50%/25% - viewed as a joke by many, but a beloved one)
Bangles (70%/80% - if they get nominated, they'll likely get in)
INXS (97%/99% - bizarre that they've never even been nominated yet. They're in once they are.)
Husker Du (35%/7%)
Sonic Youth (49%/18%)
Jesus and Mary Chain (1%/1%)
Dinosaur Jr. (0.07%/0.003% - included solely as a courtesy to BCE. About as close to a zero percent chance of nomination as Alda Reserve)
Flaming Lips (43%/15% - probably torpedoed their chances by getting weird again right about the time they got eligible for nomination)
Crowded House (5%/2% - not out of the question that people will remember that everyone likes Neil Finn)
Salt N Pepa (85%/80% - weird they're not already in, let alone never even nominated as of yet)
Fugazi (15%/1% - conceivable that the nominating committee will want to honor DC hardcore. Inconceivable the voting body will bite.)
Ministry (10%/2% - NIN likely got the only industrial slot there will ever be)
10,000 Maniacs (55%/80% - they're likely in if they ever get nominated)
Pixies (79%/50%)
Tracy Chapman (90%/90% - if this year's Emmy's had been a few weeks earlier, she'd have gotten in this year)
Aimee Mann (3%/3%)
De La Soul (60%/25% - Tribe Called Quest probably got the only Native Tongues-related spot...)
Queen Latifah (70%/60% - ...unless Latifah gets nominated)
Wu Tang Clan (90%/87% - surely they've been nominated and inducted and I've just somehow missed it?)
Lucinda Williams (20%/7%)
Bjork (80%/79%)
My Bloody Valentine (8%/3% - Shoegaze's influence keeps growing - nearly every youngish buzzband of the last few years has had some gaze in their DNA. As the archetypical shoegazers, MBV might eke out a nom)
Pavement (5%/5%)
Blur (15%/3% - slim chance, unless the Anglophile wing starts re-flexing the muscle that got Roxy and T Rex in.)
Alice in Chains (60%/45%)
Stone Temple Pilots (20%/5%)
Bikini Kill (65%/50% - no better way to show support for female inclusion than inducting the Riot Grrrl queens)
Hole (65%/35% - every time people start feeling good about Hole, Courtney opens her mouth and people think "Oh yeah....")
Smashing Pumpkins (80%/50%)
PJ Harvey (50%/35%)
Moby (2%/.01% - arguing with Natalie Portman that he was a bigger creep than even she was saying he was did him no favors)
Tori Amos (20%/5%)
Slowdive (0.00001%/0.0000001% - until such time as Gen Z might decide to become a significant voting bloc - then their chances increase to 40%/20%. Gen Z fucking adores Slowdive, bless 'em.)
Tool (10%/2% - if there's any thing HOF voters love, it's metal and prog. Not)
Cranberries (25%/75% - don't know if they have that big a chance of being nominated, but if they are, they'll have a good chance of induction)
Liz Phair (45%/40%)
Weezer (90%/97% - Weezer fans will stuff the ballot box, then, once they're inducted, bitch up a storm that they don't deserve it because everything they've done since Pinkerton has sucked.)
Wilco (85%/80%)
Alanis Morissette (65%/85%)
Korn (35%/3%)
No Doubt (95%/99%)
Portishead (15%/25%)
Blink-182 (50%/50%)
Slipknot (1%/.005%)
Queens of the Stone Age (3%/.08%)
Sleater-Kinney (80/75)
Coldplay (100%/100% - next year)
Death Cab for Cutie (37%/23%)
Yeah Yeah Yeahs (15%/15%)
Strokes (55%/10%)
Killers (80%/79%)
Arcade Fire (10%/2% - once upon a time, would've been a near lock, til Win Butler's bad behavior came to light)
Vampire Weekend (55%/50% - thankfully I'll likely be a'mouldering in the grave by the time they're eligible)
Paramore (60%/25%)
Fall Out Boy (50%/30%)
Arctic Monkeys (65%/25%)
Panic At the Disco (10%/1%)
Amy Winehouse (60%/75%)
LCD Soundsystem (JAMES MURPHY SAYS THEY'RE 150%/300%!!! The entire grateful nation will attend their induction!!!!)
The National (50%/50%, unless Taylor Swift's tide lifts all boats)

People I thought about including on the above list, and would not drop dead of shock if any scored a nomination along the way, but who I think the odds are as close to zero of that happening as possible: the Damned, XTC, Specials, Gary Numan, Nick Lowe, Joe Jackson, Bauhaus, Yellow Magic Orchestra, Big Black, Midnight Oil, Cocteau Twins, Deftones, Jimmy Eat World.

Again, those on the list above are not necessarilly people I think SHOULD be nominated, any more than I think people not on the list SHOULDN'T be. It's just the people I could see possibly being nominated based on the history of how nominations go. The majority will NOT be, but I could see someone on the nominating committee making a case for any of them.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2024 10:09PM by breno.

Kind of a depressing analysis. I'd induct most of those people and you're basically saying the majority of them will never get the honor that's been bestowed to Jimmy Buffett and Foreigner.

To be fair, I think Buffett and Lou Gramm should be honored for their charitable work, and in the grand scheme of things that's a legacy on par with making a great record. Maybe the HOF should have a Harry Chapin award, just as the Oscars have the Jean Hersholt Humanitarian Award.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2024 12:46AM by belfast.

What odds would you have given for Alexis Korner and/or John Mayall? I was totally gobsmacked by Korner's embrace, less so Mayall, who at least has tons of U.S. releases, including ones with (of course) Eric Clapton, Peter Green and Mick Taylor as his lead guitarist. Do you think Robert Plant told them he'd make a large donation if they inducted Alexis in the same way he recently agreed to sing "Stairway to Heaven" at a fundraiser for a large donation?

Mayall and Korner's era of biggest importance was pretty much during my pre-K years, so by the time I was at an age that I'd be reading articles about the history of that time, their names were ubiquitous in those articles. So they've always seemed like they must've been a pretty big deal to me, so I'm not too surprised by their inductions.

I won't be too surprised if Mott the Hoople gets inducted someday, but I'll be less surprised if they don't.

I expect ELO being inducted will be the closest the Move ever gets, especially since they went to the trouble of including Roy Wood, despite the fact he was only around for one album.

The famed singer also donated ten grand to an independent radio station in Oregon, when the station offered to promise never to play "Stairway to Heaven" again in return for a $10,000 donation. So I guess, with Robert Plant, just about anything is possible.

Alexis Korner and John Mayall will be enshrined in the RockHall in the Musical Excellence category. Does this mean the door has opened a crack and we may someday see Mott the Hoople and The Move inducted, or is it just a blues thing? (And if so, where is Cyril Davies?) Discuss.

Alexis Korner will be a complete blind spot mystery to 99% of the viewers until the Stones are invoked and then he still won't mean anything to anyone who didn't already know about that era. How about Joe Meek? Cliff Richard (he's not in, is he?), Joe Brown, Johnny Kidd, etc.?

Another worthy of induction could be Lonnie Donegan. I actually don't listen to his music, but there's no doubt he inspired so many in the UK to go into pop music (including rock n' roll), so much that his impact may be highly undervalued (not to mention immense).

Definitely the Alexis Korner of skiffle...

JOE MEEK, yes!

And considering how huge he is in the UK, certainly Sir Cliff should be in. But the Hall has always had this weird obsession with Brit bands that were huge in the US, no matter how good they were (really, The Dave Clark 5..?), but shunning Brit artists who were only huge in their actual, native land. Remember how long it took to induct Roxy Music...

Since Outstanding Achievement in The Field of Excellence seems to be the pathway for induction for people who should've been in decades ago, I wish they'd pump up those numbers and start inducting acts that have been wrongfully overlooked at even the nomination stage. I don't want to wait for Hüsker Dü, the Replacements, Sonic Youth, etc. to rack up multiple nominations when they can barely get one - it's been over 40 years now, just put them in while they're still healthy and able..

Breno wrote: "People I thought about including on the above list, and would not drop dead of shock if any scored a nomination along the way, but who I think the odds are as close to zero of that happening as possible: the Damned, XTC, Specials, Gary Numan, Nick Lowe, Joe Jackson, Bauhaus, Yellow Magic Orchestra, Midnight Oil, Cocteau Twins, Deftones, Jimmy Eat World."

Ty kind sir for including XTC, Gary Numan, and Cocteau Twins, three of my all time favorite bands, it's nice to see them mentioned in the same post as the the RoR HoF inductees even though they have 1/1000th chance of making it in. And I have indeed noticed that musicians that were popular in Europe, but not the US, have been mostly passed over for induction or even serious consideration.

From a bit out of left field, I think the Monkees should be considered for the Hall, granted, they didn't write all of their songs nor did they play their own instruments early on, but the same is true of the Jackson 5 and they were inducted back in '97. But with only Mickey Dolenz being the sole living member of the band, the enshrinement would be bittersweet, to say the least. Joan Jett didn't write many songs (at least early on) and she's in the hall. Those may have been anomalies...the Hall consists largely of sings/groups that wrote their own material, which means the great crooners will never get in (that's fine with Sinatra, who labeled rock n roll "False and fake and played by cretinous goons").

A case for Dick Dale? Anyone?

> From a bit out of left field, I think the Monkees should be
> considered for the Hall ...

That's not really very far out of left field. Or, to be more accurate, a lot of fans have shared your viewpoint for a long time. Paul Revere & the Raiders have a similarly devoted fan base that's been lobbying for years to get that band into the Hall of Fame.

And I'd love to see Dick Dale get inducted, by any means -- whether as a Performer, or an Influence, or an exemplar of Musical Excellence. Ideally, I'd like to see him in as a Performer, having seen him onstage and thoroughly enjoyed his show. That's a big part of why I get cynical about the Award for Musical Excellence: it gets used as a sop to groups like Judas Priest (who have worked their asses off for fifty years on stage after stage around the globe) whereas someone like Carly Simon -- a singer whose stage fright once compelled her to send a taped performance to Saturday Night Live, rather than stand in front of an audience -- gets inducted as a Performer.

Absolutely Dick Dale should be in. He was pioneering aggressive guitar styles before the words "punk" or "metal" had been conceived (at least, as musical terms) - the still-breathtaking "Miserlou Twist" in all its 4-and-1/2 minute glory could be Sonic Youth transported back to 1962. He was the original "shredder," influencing everyone from Hendrix on down.

How many people can claim to practically inventing an entire musical genre? One of the bedrocks of the still-thriving surf sound, along with the Beach Boys, and Ventures (both of whom are in the Hall). And not just a cult hero, but a mainstream success, with hits and even movie appearances.

I saw him live many times, and his music hadn't aged a bit. You certainly can't say that about most "oldies" acts. Hell, he was even on the Vans Warped Tour!

Back when he was initially eligible, I thought it would be a no-brainer to induct him. Every single damn vocal/doo-wop group got in, and not the guitarists. East Coast bias? I've noted here before how many NYC punk artists are in, but few from elsewhere.

MrFab wrote "East Coast bias? I've noted here before how many NYC punk artists are in, but few from elsewhere."

Yes.

There are some great punk/ metal bands from L.A. that merit inclusion to the Hall...First and foremost, Motley Crue. Although Metallica had other influences, their early work was strewn with MC's guitar chords...the usual maxim is "Without MC, there is no Metallica."

Motley Crue relayed to the media that the Hall had told them they were never getting inducted because of their behavior (the band was a bit hedonistic during those days).But that could also be said of James Brown, Sex Pistols, etc... I hate when people utilize those arguments, to deny an artist or athlete that is due to be enshrined in their respective HoF's because of how they acted behind stage or away from the field. That is the dark side of the modern pc/woke movement, it eliminates all the accomplishments someone achieved in their vocations if they didn't fit the nice guy/girl mold of the times. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one to tell Nick Cave he's never getting inducted...

X was one of the best bands to come out of So Cal imo. I doubt we will ever see them inducted in our lifetimes, not with the way things are going at The Hall these days.

I think Nikki Sixx said it best about the RRHF:

"I think people get too worked up about the RRHF, if you get in that's cool and if not, it's not a big deal. It's not some elite club that defines you. It's an award. None of us hopefully make music just for awards."

"It's a fixed old-boy network that has lost touch with art, songwriting craft, lyrics and influential music and usually has other agendas at hand." "Young bands tell me it's a joke and these bands are the future."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2024 05:19AM by Fleeingbandit.

Let's be honest. Motley Crue weren't just "a bit hedonistic." Vince Neil's drinking led to a man's death, while Tommy Lee and Nikki Sixx sexually assaulted a woman. Lee beat up Pamela Anderson. Their behavior harmed other people in a very concrete way. If you still want to honor them without any accountability for committing manslaughter and rape, that's your choice, but don't expect the world to follow.

Many great artists have been terrible people, and I don't know what to do about that in evaluating art. But a man is dead thanks to Motley Crue's behavior. Vince Neil got a slap on the wrist from the justice system for it, while the band's popularity was unharmed. We're missing the great albums Hanoi Rocks might have gone on to record if Nicholas Dingley's death didn't lead to their breakup. That's as big a part of Motley Crue's legacy as their music.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2024 11:33AM by steevee.

What MC did behind the scenes was atrocious, and I don't condone what they did, there is no place in society for that crap. And they should have been held accountable, I agree with you. Tommy Lee should have gone to prison for longer than six months for what he did to his wife and son. I don't tolerate domestic abuse in any way, I have seen more of it than the average person, and I have counseled and protected women who were experiencing it. I should have been more explicit in my post about it, my intention was not to offend anyone but to point out the argument between the music and the people behind it. I did not intend to lead this thread away from it's original subject.

For crying out loud...

Quote
Stereogum
We could see new categories added to the Rock Hall honors in the near future. iHeartMedia executive John Sykes, who’s been Rock Hall chairman since 2020, elaborates:

"We’ve discussed ways we could recognize not only artists but those around them who’ve had an impact on the sound of rock and roll. Fans often don’t even know who helped break these artists. It could be record-company presidents, it could be lawyers, it could be agents...That could be another category."

Lawyers and agents have enough money to make large donations in thanks for being inducted. Album cover artists, photographers, journalists and sundry other sorts who are not musicians but who nonetheless make actual creative contributions to the art form, do not.

Peter Saville, Rick Griffin, Vaughan Oliver, Mick Rock, Ebet Roberts, Lynn Goldsmith, Greil Marcus, Lester Bangs, Ira Robbins and Peter Guralnik are not in the Hall of Fame. But Bruce Springsteen's lawyer sure is.

"It could be record-company presidents, it could be lawyers, it could be agents..."

I involuntarily LOLed when I read that. Imagine that above quote being performed by, like, a Martin Short character from SCTV.

Yeesh, not even the Oscars give out awards for Best Agents or Best Studio Head. Don't give 'em any ideas!

Disney/ABC-TV execs have been pushing for a "most popular film" Oscar for years now, which is just as dubious if not more so. The best response I've heard to that: "those movies already get something. It's called MONEY."

People thought Wenner was bad, but the new guy is an executive for iHeart, a company so toxic that they changed their name after it became so thoroughly tarnished by everything they did to the radio industry across the country. (You may remember their old name better: Clear Channel.) He conveniently doesn't bother to mention that the most egregious wrongs committed within the industry, including the most horrible and clichéd practices known to anyone interested in recorded music, were essentially carried out ruthlessly by the same people he's now trying to cram into the hall of fame. Let's induct the first person who pioneered taking songwriting credits without making any actual contributions! Or how about the first person to come up with creative accounting practices that put their label's artists forever in debt? Or how about an exhibit displaying the awful contracts Saul Zaentz came up with for CCR, that Atlantic used to steal the entire Stax/Volt catalog, that Allen Klein used to steal everything the Stones did before 1970, that Matthew Katz forced upon Moby Grape, and on and on...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2025 03:38PM by belfast.

Wake me up when the Minutemen get in.