Re: RRHoF 2021 nominees

Boy, this list is about as broadly distributed across the map as any I've seen.

Jay-Z
Carole King
Tina Turner
Mary J. Blige
Kate Bush
Devo
Foo Fighters
The Go-Go's
Iron Maiden
Chaka Khan
Fela Kuti
LL Cool J
New York Dolls
Rage Against the Machine
Todd Rundgren
Dionne Warwick

Yeah, was just studying that. Lots of musicians on that list I can't find too much fault with. I have never heard Foo Fighters, Jay-Z, Mary J. Blige, and Rage Against The Machine, so I'll not comment. Can't believe that Carole King and Tina Turner aren't already in there! [checks - they are - but not as solo performers]. Dunno if I can get behind Tina's platinum years, though I bought tickets to her show…TWICE. Once to see Level 42 open, and a few years later to see Chris Isaak open. Missed Tina.

If it were down to me?

DEVO
Go-Go's
Chaka Kahn
Todd Rundgren
New York Dolls
Fela Kuti

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I'm jazzed that Fela is up for induction. I don't know how likely it actually is, though.

I think Maiden absolutely deserves entry, being both bestsellers and highly influential. But I get the feeling the Hall decided their metal quota was full once they inducted Sabbath and Metallica. (And Deep Purple? Can't remember if they're in or not.)

Seems like every year they nominate either the Dolls or the MC5, and neither ever get in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2021 03:53PM by Michael Toland.

Kate Bush!!??!

A long shot I know, but a fanboy can dream. After all, the execrable* Jan Wenner stepped down as head of the Hall last year, and the new kid really seems intent on shaking things up. Remember we were talking about how the critics despised Devo? Gotta love imaging smoke coming out of their ears now, bwa-ha-ha.


*Words Trouser Press Taught Us



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2021 04:24PM by MrFab.

When Roxy Music got in, it seemed to me that there was a new day a'dawning, which T Rex's subsequent induction felt like it maybe confirmed - hopefully the Jann Wenner U.S. boomer stranglehold is loosening. Roxy and T Rex were almost entirely British phenomena that could really only boast of marginal U.S. awareness, so it feels like maybe a more anglophilic voting bloc is flexing its muscles. If that's the case, Kate might have a better shot than she would seem to. It still feels unlikely, but I remember nearly swallowing my tongue a couple years ago when Roxy got in, as that seemed pretty impossible as well.

I think Maiden stands a good chance of inclusion. (Deep Purple did get in, last year.)

This is only the second time the Dolls have been nominated. The last was 20 years ago! I guess, with the death of Sylvain Sylvain, someone decided the Hall ought to induct the Dolls while at least one member still is alive. Perhaps the same logic will prevail in favor of the MC5 (which has been nominated five times, including the last four years in a row) when either Dennis Thompson or Wayne Kramer exits this mortal coil.

Half of these nominees are first-timers: Fela, Dionne, Tina, Mary J., the Foos, The Go-Go's, Maiden and Jay-Z. It's kinda funny that new first-timers get the opportunity, while long-time nominees seem to get rejected each year. (This makes six nominations for LL Cool J!) But, what the heck do I know.

I'm not even going to predict a result. Foo Fighters seem like a shoo-in, but apart from that, it could go any which way.

Inducting Foo Fighters just seems like inducting Charleston Chews to the Candy Bar Hall of Fame. They've been around forever, they're everywhere, there's not really anything particularly wrong with them and people will eat them if they're put in front of them, but has anyone ever walked into a convenience store with the express goal of walking out with a Charleston Chew, or been delighted to dump out their trick or treat bag and find it full of CCs?

Dave Grohl seems to be one of the more genuinely swell guys on the planet, he has unimpeachable bonafides and fights the good fight - reportedly it was his passionate boosterism that got the Bad Brains nominated a few years ago - but man! are the Foo Fighters the textbook definition of "competent" in its least flattering usage. Not unlikable by any stretch, and capable of greatness - "Everlong" is dandy as fuck - but more often than not the only thing they inspire is the thought "y'know, that Dave Grohl seems like a pretty good dude."

It won't be an outrage if they're inducted. It'll just be like one of those nights when you're really hungry driving home from work and fill your head with visions of all the delicious things you could have for dinner, but are unable to make up your mind what restaurant you want to stop at and end up sitting at home in front of the tv with frozen french fries and fish sticks. It gets the job done, but you'd hoped for so much more.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2021 07:17AM by breno.

Still stunned that Joy Division/New Order are yet to even be nominated for the damned place. Ffs, Disney sells (or sold, anyhow) Unknown Pleasures-style Mickey Mouse t-shirts. If that doesn't bespeak fame, I dunno what does.

Bummed that Kraftwerk has fallen out of the nominations - kind of thought Florian's death might be a catalyst for their induction, but guess not. On his show on Sirius a few months back, Alan Light talked about how he's been struggling for years to try to make other members of the nominating board and the voters comprehend how important Kraftwerk were, but it's been a losing battle so far. He said he and the other Kraftwerk boosters were looking at other options, like using the "early influences" category, to get them in, as the voters have so far been too dunderheaded to vote them in outright.

Kinda tickled that the Dave Matthews Band fell out of the running in only their second year of eligibility, not so much because of the band themselves - Matthews seems like a pretty decent and stand-up guy who never missed an opportunity to talk up Johnny Clegg - but because the DMB fanbase is one I reflexively dislike, and the idea of 90s era frat boys fuming that Dave didn't get nominated this year but friggin' DEVO did is pleasing to my soul.

And what of the elephant in the room…

SPARKS!!!

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2021 09:16AM by Post-Punk Monk.

I’m sure most of you will agree that RROH induction, like Grammy nomination, isn’t really indicative of how truly wonderful any of the artists or their output is.

However ...as I look at that list...Todd is the name that I’d most like to see get in. To acknowledge his own albums not to mention his impressive production work. He’s behind ALOT of what I consider important Rocknroll. AND he dated Bebe Buell. It doesn’t get more rocknroll than that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2021 12:11PM by Bip.

It certainly seems odd that he hasn't gotten in by now. Maybe this will be his year.

At least as odd the fact that Link Wray, Dick Dale, Cher, the Monkees, Husker Du, Black Flag, etc haven’t even been nominated..

> At least as odd the fact that Link Wray, Dick Dale, Cher, the Monkees, Husker Du, Black Flag, etc haven’t even been nominated.

Link Wray has, twice.

Carole King has been inducted as a "non-performer," together with her ex Gerry Goffin. Tina Turner has been inducted as half of a performing duo, with Ike. I predict at least one of them will be on the final slate. Much like the Anglophile trend that Reno mentioned above, the HoF has shown a trend in recent years toward inducting female solo artists. (I don't think even those two trends put together, though, will generate enough momentum to make Kate Bush a serious contender for induction.)

Of those two nominees, my preference would be Tina. Say what you will about her '80s work, Monk, but she is survival incarnate. And as a live performer, she never ceded any ground. Carole King made some great contributions as a songwriter; as a solo recording artist, though, her work necessitated and validated punk.

Apart from Carole and Dionne, I wouldn't be too unhappy with any of these artists being inducted. (Dionne is a great singer; her work on Burt Bacharach & Hal David's work remains top-notch listening. But a "rock 'n' roll" artist? Not to my ears. Not even remotely.)

Where's Dinosaur, Jr.? How the hell is it even possible that Dinosaur, Jr., still hasn't been nominated?

Is the nomination process rigged against anyone who was on SST? (Meat Puppets still haven't been nominated, either.)

Unpopular opinion: Ted Nugent will get in before J. Mascis. Bet money on it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2021 05:50PM by IHeartTP.

So far in fan voting, poor Kate is coming in last (preventing the Dolls from doing so). The big surprise is that Fela Kuti is in 5th place. I can only assume that Nigeria and the African continent in general have gotten wind of the nomination and are stuffing the ballot box, and good for them!!!! if that's the case. Those votes are definitely not coming from America - Americans are much more likely to be organizing a write-in campaign for Journey, completely unaware that they're already in. Ain't no way that the Jethros and Jethrines in this country are voting for an African in sufficient numbers to boost him into the #5 spot.

A band actually named Jethro and the Jethrines might likely get more votes than Fela.

Breno your posts on this thread have been absolutely killing it!

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2021 11:13PM by That One Guy.

That One Guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, I'll be old Mr. Cranky here - since somebody
> has to be...
>
> Firstly, the entire notion of a RRHOF is idiotic
> to begin with. But if it's going to a) exist in
> the form it does now, honoring the types of people
> it generally has, and b) thirty five years on, Al
> Kooper is not in there - taking it seriously on
> any level is not something I tend to do.
>
> And I'm sorry, but some of the suggestions above
> are, quite frankly, absurd. As I said, it's a dumb
> ass concept to begin with. But if you do still
> feel the need to approach it on an adult level,
> you need to at least need make an effort at
> distinguishing fanboy-type feelings from genuinely
> arguable artistic merit and accomplishment.

I completely agree with this but my feelings don't really enter into the discussion. If you HAVE to have a RRHOF, then the 12 people in there should be blues/country/gospel artists who led to Rock & Roll. Finito. No artists recording after 1955 would be in there. I do enjoy looking at the artifacts in the Rock Hall, but I'm a music geek. Heck, I like looking at the stuff in a House Of Blues. I'm easy that way.

I hear you on some of the nominations and those that actually get in, sometimes a complete joke. But have you been there yet? The Clash exhibit they had was a life changing experience for me as well as many other items I have seen over the years. Luckily I only live 4 hours from Cleveland and travel north quite a bit for kids sports so I have stopped in there numerous times. To do it right, easily 2-3 hours. One visit we stayed in a hotel very close and I was able to go twice and that was a real nice treat for me so I could take my time. I would wait until summer or later to go, COVID has really altered the experience and is currently not worth the 28 bucks to get in. The whole nomination process is whack, the weird forced "everyone in the pool" finales are cringe worthy at best most of the time. I think a better concept might have been the Music Hall of Fame with categories of inductees every year, pretty much everyone has a different definition of rock and roll.

Speaking as someone who has worked directly with the Rock Hall for the past decade or so, I can tell you that the folks who work there are dedicated music nerds, and many of them are just as frustrated at the nomination process as anyone else. The year I visited the folks who work behind the scenes I was wearing a MC5 shirt, since I feel like the 5 is one of the biggest misses in the inductees, and it got a huge round of support. Believe me, the folks who work there know where the holes are.

Whatever one's opinion of the idea of a HOF for rock is (and I personally think the umbrella should be as wide as possible), keep in mind that the ceremony's main function is as the biggest major fundraiser for the organization, and thus tends to cater to the moneybags who have the means to buy the expensive tickets - hence the induction of folks like Bon Jovi, who may have millions of fans, but is hardly taken seriously as any kind of pioneer or cultural icon. That money goes to the Hall and Museum itself, which is just as fabulous as Upper90 and Post-Punk Monk say it is. Thorough, well-balanced between mainstream and quirky (the year I went they had an exhibit on Cleveland's 70s proto-punk scene, with a heavy emphasis on Pere Ubu), and just soaked in a love of all things rock & roll. If they have to induct Bon Jovi to keep the Hall going, I can live with it.

> I can only assume that Nigeria and the African continent in general have gotten wind of the nomination
> and are stuffing the ballot box, and good for them!!!! if that's the case.

Hey, if it works for the EuroVision song contest ...

Fela Kuti is currently #1 in the fan vote today. I love it.

Kate Bush and the New York Dolls continue to sit at the bottom of the standings. Of course, the fan vote means absolutely nothing. Dave Matthews won it last year and didn't get in, and wasn't even nominated this year. So all the standings are completely meaningless as to who will be inducted.

It's very amusing to me to think of the majority of Americans who are voting wondering who/what the hell is Fela Kuti?

Right you are, Brad, Nigerians are all over this:

[m.guardian.ng]

Alas, never saw the Black President himself, as his one big LA show I wanted to see at the Hollywood bowl had to be canceled because The Nigerian government arrested him on the trumped up money-laundering charges, or whatever that was. But I have seen, in separate shows, both Femi and Seun, both super spectacular performances.

> Of course, the fan vote means absolutely nothing.

Well, very nearly so. All the fan votes are consolidated into the equivalent of one ballot. So when they're all tabulated, it'll count as a vote for one slate of musicians, with Fela at the top. Hardly enough to tip the scales.

> It's very amusing to me to think of the majority of Americans who are voting wondering who/what the hell is Fela Kuti?

Tell them, "He's the only African who's ever had a Broadway musical created about his life. (Unless you count The Lion King.)"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2021 02:03PM by Delvin.

The inductees are announced and whatever. Rundgren and the Go-Gos were long overdue for inclusion, so yay for them. Carole King and Tina Turner, yeah, okay, fine. I expressed my view on Foo Fighters earlier - a band that's never come close to setting the world ablaze with anything new and exciting, but it's hard to begrudge Grohl anything, as he seems to be a genuinely decent human being. My almost complete lack of engagement with anything hip hop related post-1993 or so renders Jay-Z a complete cipher to me. I understand that he has a rather attractive, talented and intelligent wife who he may have cheated on or something, but beyond that I honestly know naught about the guy and his apparent 99 problems. (I'm not even entirely sure that's an accurate reference, so feel free to school me if it ain't.)

The more exciting inductees come from the non-voting categories, where the committees that decide on the Early Influence and Musical Excellence categories said fuck it and inducted overdue worthies like Kraftwerk, LL Cool J, Charley Patton and Gil Scott-Heron after years of dumbassedness on the part of the voters in general.

I suspect the same strategy will eventually be used to get Fela Kuti and maybe the Dolls and MC5 in the hall - if the voters refuse to induct them outright, declare them early influences or musically excellent and get them in. It's all the same anyhoo - they get their plaques on the wall in the most boring part of the Cleveland complex with no asterisks or anything separating them from everyone voted in through the front door, so there's no actual difference in the long run.

I suspect Dave Grohl has already extended an invitation to Nandi Bushell to be his guest at the induction ceremony.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2021 12:26PM by breno.

Is the Hall more about historical impact/influence or body of work? For example, The Go-Gos made a whopping THREE albums in their prime and only four total over a 20-year period (and zero in the last 20 years). And only one of those albums is widely considered a "classic." So, if isn't about their body of work, it has to be influence/impact. But what was their real influence? Not trying to diss the Go-Gos...I like Beauty and the Beat as much as the next guy, but I honestly don't know why they are worthy of any hall of fame.

[And having said all of that, I realize I could ask the same questions about many others currently in the RRHOF.]

I think the RRHOF has to try to balance between influence/impact and actual fame, which is what gets it called lame by everyone on all sides of the debate. Not many people on this board are fans of the inclusion of Bon Jovi or Journey, for instance, but if you're going to have a hall of fame, how do you exclude the most famous bands of their era? On the other hand, your average Journey fan is going to scratch their head and wonder who the hell were the Velvet Underground and why should some band of degenerates that no one ever heard of be in when a band obviously famous and beloved by their throngs of fans like Styx isn't? Then those of us posting here would have a conniption at the very thought of Styx even being nominated, while applauding the fact that the very unfamous Bad Brains once were. So they've got to cast as wide a net as possible, and sometimes that net will haul in Roxy Music and sometimes it hauls in Journey. One is there for artistic importance, the other for massive popularity, and the people who think halls of fame should reward fame think the whole thing is stupid because REO Speedwagon isn't in and the people who think it should reward artistic influence think it's stupid because Captain Beefheart isn't. (Myself, I think it's a bloody outrage that the Maddox Brothers and Rose aren't in as Early Influences and the whole thing is a joke because of it!)

As for the Go-Gos, they were the first all-female band to become big stars, which is a big deal in itself, but they also helped make the airwaves safe for New Wave. There had already been new wave hitmakers before the summer of 81, but the Go-Gos were the first to break through on what could be considered almost an indie label (IRS). (Which, come to think of it, probably gave IRS the infusion of cash they needed to give R.E.M. a bigger marketing push than they might otherwise have gotten, and that shaped the course of American college rock for the rest of the decade, but that's more of a side effect.) Anyhow, they laid the groundwork (or built on the groundwork laid down by the Runaways) for female bands going forward and showed that they could actually be huge hitmakers. Whether or not that has turned out to be as huge an impact as it should be (there's still a pretty lamentable dearth of all-female bands making huge splashes), it's one that should be acknowledged. And they kind of came along right as Blondie was sputtering out and carried the flag of new wave (along with the Police) until bands like the Human League, ABC, etc., came along and really cemented its popularity in America.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2021 01:34PM by breno.

The Go-Go's were the first all-female band to reach Number One on both the album charts and the singles charts, while playing their own instruments and writing their own songs. We can point to other all-female acts, such as Fanny or The Runaways, and talk about their influence and impact, but the truth is, none of those bands reached a very wide audience in their time. Sure, plenty of newer female rockers point to Joan Jett or Lita Ford as being among their personal heroes, but it's likely that few of those younger musicians knew that those women had been in The Runaways as teenagers, until they dug deeper.

So yeah, I'd say The Go-Go's have had a significant amount of impact and influence. And as for their body of work, well, it may be small, but I'll stick up for it any day of the week, and twice on Fridays. Their music has aged better than a lot of its contemporaries. My wife and I saw the musical Head Over Heels, done by a repertory company in Seattle, a few years ago. It was great fun to hear the whole audience clap and cheer along with those songs. I noticed a lot of younger people in the audience, who apparently knew and loved the songs as well as their boomer parents. We listened to Beauty and the Beat on our drive home, and marveled at just how fresh and alive that album still sounds. Sure, we associate it with New Wave, and with MTV, and with so many other things about the '80s. But taken objectively, it truly does sound timeless.

Hey, Nirvana had only three albums, and only one of them is widely considered a classic ... and yet the band got inducted in its first year of eligibility. Percy Sledge got inducted too ... and how many people can name a song he sang, apart from "When a Man Loves a Woman"? (Shit, Cat Stevens has been inducted, after multiple nominations. That suggests to me that, sometimes, it isn't about a body of work, or impact, or influence. Sometimes it's about some insistent voter who continues to nominate an artist based on fond memories of the music that was playing when he first got laid.)

And, as Mr. Toland pointed out, while the Hall of Fame itself may be about an artist's impact, influence or body of work, the inductions are mostly about the ceremony itself, and the fund-raising opportunity it provides.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2021 02:04PM by Delvin.

Still no J. Masic & Dinosaur, Jr.? Who the hell did he piss off? First name I always look for and - nope, still not there.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2021 11:16PM by That One Guy.

Not a terrible list of winners. Mostly really talented people there, whatever the genre. Astonished that Kraftwerk are in. Pleased to see Rundgren get his due - if you've gotta have this thing, then he should be there. But not shocked to see DEVO left out in the cold again. I'd lose the Foo Fighters for DEVO, even though I've not heard The Foo Fighters! Just on principle. Dang it, am I now invested in this drama!?!

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Monk, I share your view on this.... swap out the Foos for DEVO. Nothing against Grohl... he seems like a stand-up guy who always acknowledges his influences and genuinely just loves to rock out.... but DEVO were really more innovative. And unprecedented.
Something tells me Grohl might even agree.