"They'll turn this town into a mall, And I don't know what to think"

I don't know if "nostalgia" is the word, but in recent years there's been a lot of interest in the crazy days of American cities in the '70s and '80s. Debbie Harry said in a recent interview that tho New York was pretty scummy, she kinda misses it. In the book "Under the Big Black Sun," Kristine McKenna, a writer who covered the punk scene, said she was driving around LA and started crying because all the old places are gone. Allen Ravenstine of Pere Ubu confirms the "Rust Belt" theory of the rise of the Ohio scene, remembering rehearsing with the windows open, hearing all the sirens and noises blending with the music, and thinking how it all made sense.

Well...

Let's face it, American cities were in a state of collapse. It couldn't continue. Yes, the cultural explosion was incredible, perhaps unmatched in the 20th Century (it's why this board exists and we're all here). But can't we have creativity without crime, poetry without poverty? We have had culture in some form for thousands of years, after all. Gentrification does seem to coincide with the end of the era, but I would like for my child to not have to step around a dead body on Hollywood Blvd, and as I had to do once, just for the sake of a thriving culture.


Buster Poindexter sang:

I can't believe the things I see on Broadway today
The ladies of the evening are going away
Disney's built a fortress in the heart of Times Square
The most wholesome people will soon be there

They don't smoke. They don't drink
They'll turn this town into a mall
And I don't know what to think
They don't smoke. They don't drink
They'll turn this town into a mall
And I don't know what to think

Hubert had his circus on Forty-Second street
The most fabulous freaks you'd ever want to meet
To us that emporium was built on hallowed ground
But the city fathers shut it down

They don't smoke. They don't drink
They'll turn this town into a mall
And I don't know what to think
They don't smoke. They don't drink
They'll turn this town into a mall
And I don't know what to think

No more raunch, no more sleeze
Not even one old time polite striptease
They don't rob, they don't steal
And they confuse that Batman's car with a pimpmobile

They don't curse, they don't swear
And on Sunday mornings they are lost in prayer
They don't lie, they don't cheat
They're Christian soldiers and they're marching down our street

Grant's was the best bar I was ever in
The center of the universe, a cauldron of sin
Sure sometimes when the lights went out, someone would get shot
That's no reason to bring back Camelot

They don't smoke. They don't drink
They'll turn this town into a mall
And I don't know what to think
They don't smoke. They don't drink
They'll turn this town into a mall
And I don't know what to think
They don't smoke. They don't drink
They'll turn this town into a mall
And I don't know what to think

In the golden days of yore
Grayline would take them on a tour
It was them, it was us
But at least they would remain upon the bus

They say thanks, they say please
And they cover up their noses when they sneeze
They have jobs, no welfare
They don't even know the meaning of despair

They don't shout, they don't spit
There aren't many crimes they're willing to commit
They don't pack guns, they don't pull knives
I don't know how these people think they will survive

- "Nueva Broadway"



Post Edited (02-06-19 14:06)

Tim Lawrence's book on the New York club scene of the early '80s makes a case that downtown NYC neighborhoods of the time were just dangerous enough to scare off yuppies but not enough that you risked being killed (as opposed to getting mugged) by going to CBGB or the Mudd Club or living in the East Village, and cheap enough that one could live there without needing a trust fund or having to work 60 hours a week (or even 40.) It celebrates that balance of the time, but it occurred to me that it couldn't survive for a number of reasons: heroin became increasingly popular within the music and art scene during the period his book covers, and crack did after it ends. AIDS started killing off gay men during it, and in addition to the direct casualties the disease caused, it made the mixing of gay and heterosexual audiences at nightclubs unfashionable again and helped result in separating music genres. (Hip-hop quickly diverged from its roots in disco, Sonic Youth and Swans weren't interested in dance music unlike the Contortions or Bush Tetras, and clubgoers didn't want to hear both Run-DMC and house music at the same event.) The popularity of the music he praises and its influence on artists like Madonna and the Beastie Boys, who brought a taste of NYC to Middle America, inadvertently helped lead to gentrification.

I've lived in New York since 1992, and in the same East Village apartment since 1993. There are a lot of things I don't miss about the old NYC, like open sales of hard drugs, but as far dead bodies, we have the worst of both worlds. As gentrified as New York is, I called 911 to get help for someone who seemed to have passed out on the street last year. The extremes of poverty are still very visible and glaring, while the cheap - or even affordable - rents that helped fuel creativity and a thriving music scene are gone. Walking through Manhattan, every other storefront seems to be empty and the ones that are open are often occupied the same chain stores one finds in malls. What good does this kind of landscape do anyone? We haven't made any genuine progress.



Post Edited (02-06-19 22:14)

It's not all bad news, American friends:
[celebrityaccess.com]

Rose-coloured glasses, and the better grass is the grass that's always browner?

Minneapolis, different story.

What's happened to San Fran maybe the saddest of all

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Walking through Manhattan, every other storefront seems to be empty and the ones that are open are often occupied the same chain stores one finds in malls.

Sounds like Chicago. Tho that was a decade ago when I was there, don't know what it's like now.

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What's happened to San Fran maybe the saddest of all

Frisco's an interesting case. There has indeed been much written about the mass exodus of musicians (and artists in general), but was San Fran ever really dirty and dangerous to begin with? They may be getting gentrification without even the benefit of a cleaner, safer city. in any case, the days of the likes of Jello Biafra, The Residents, the 415 Records posse, Flipper, et al, moving to SF to launch a career are long gone. Shame.


That's cool about the Grande Ballroom re-opening - Detroit's another interesting case. If societal degradation was all it took to spawn a thriving culture, Detroit should be like old Manhattan. Is there really any mind-blowing new-ness coming out of the Motor City that I don't know about?



Post Edited (02-07-19 13:26)

It seeps into the nostalgic way people talk about music culture in their town (radio stations, events, concerts) - in your city where did the "Rock" bands play? Well, more important is "where did Black Flag play in your town?" - likely it was somewhere off that established grid and that set up a network of possibilities, opportunities, and a whole culture different than bands playing the Beacon in NYC etc.

But there were whole systems of economics, culture, race tied into that to - who could even get to that show to begin with, what could they afford to pay, what could the audience look like. So when you look back on it everything is jumbled in the best and worst ways - "see, this CVS was exactly where that club was which "then" was in a real dodgy part of town by the adult theater, near heroin alley a block over, and there was the best greasy diner on the corner right where that McDonald's is" - seems both completely true and a wildly improbable at the same time.

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What's happened to San Fran maybe the saddest of all

SAY IT BROTHER, SAY IT!!!!!!!! My GF lives near Polk/Sutter and it seems like just about all the clubs nearby or within public transportation distance have either closed down (Hemlock Tavern, Elbo Room, Red Devil Lounge) to make way for condos and "bro bars", or been infiltrated by Goldenvoice (Great American Music Hall, Slims). Not to mention all the cool funky stores, movie theaters, and thrift stores that have been shuttered. There are still pockets of resistance but obviously it's been getting harder.

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was San Fran ever really dirty and dangerous to begin with?

Let me tell you about a magical place known as the Tenderloin... (The area around Civic Center BART isn't exactly that clean/safe either). Without getting TMI, let's just say that in certain areas it's still best to look down at the sidewalk while you're walking.

So does good art only come from scummy places?

Would you buy (better yet, trust) a debut album by a j-crew-wearing guy with a better paying corporate job than you, fancier car then you, bigger newer house than you, more perfect wife/husband than you, better adjusted kids than yours, nicer yard than yours, etc etc...?

I believe art may have to come from some form of discomfort. If you’re comfortable, you just watch tv or read your phone. I hate to be biased and think that way....but I think I really do!!

My issue with New York now isn't s that great art is born out of being a heroin addict living in squalor and facing violence every day. It's that 1)musicians and other artists without large trust funds can't afford to live in the city or have to spend so much time working day jobs that their creativity is stifled, 2)while New York is much less violent than it used to be, the extremes of wealth and poverty have actually gotten worse - it's less "safe" to be a poor person here, easier to fall through the cracks and the signs of that are visible to anyone who takes a subway ride now. Gentrification didn't solve urban America's problems with poverty, addiction or physical and health, even if it made life more comfortable for some people (including myself, to be honest.)

I don't believe that all art has to come from discomfort. On the contrary, sometimes that silver spoon frees the artist up to take some real creative chances since they don't have to watch the bottom line. Dieter Meier of Yello comes immediately to mind. Kraftwerk's fathers were architects. But they come from a European culture.



Former TP subscriber [81, 82, 83, 84]

[postpunkmonk.com]
For further rumination on the Fresh New Sound of Yesterday®

I can't speak 100 percent for the Seattle scene ... and I've learned to take the reminiscences of those I've met here with a healthy pinch of salt. Yeah, real estate prices and rental rates are skyrocketing here, but there still are a lot of rough parts of the city, and a lot of places for bands to play. This is a city that embraces its funky side ... for the time being, at least.