Re: The Godfather of punk / new wave you struggle with

Allow yourself to join me in losing some hipster credibility.

We all know who the 200 or so 'godfathers of punk / new wave' are supposed to be. i.e. The velvet underground, can, stooges, kraftwerk, etc etc ...I know you know what I mean.

Are there any of them that you've tried to get with, but JUST CAN'T figure it out?

For me, a big one is captain beefheart. Look, I've tried. I've owned 'troutmask replica' on vinyl since I was 15, and every couple years I pull it out out try again (usually after reading some article praising it).... and still no luck. Something's not clicking... I understand it's supposed to be challenging music, and I've loved lots of challenging music. But this is one I fight with.
Regardless, I will try again. "It's not you, it's me".

TMR is the 6th best CB LP. It's possibly the most challenging, FWIW; maybe a work of awe even. But even as a fan I may never listen to it again.

Best are Clear Spot and Shiny Beast

easiest entry point is Safe as Milk

I am partial to Ice Cream but it's not a good entry point

Bat Chain [2012] is also great, but it's like an alt version of Shiny Beast

I prefer CLEAR SPOT & SAFE AS MILK to TROUT MASK REPLICA too. TMR is an amazing accomplishment - Vox made a video analyzing it from a music theory perspective here: [www.youtube.com] - but it's such a harsh and demanding listen that I don't play it very often, while "Electricity," "Zig Zag Wanderer" and "Nowadays A Woman's Got To Hit A Man" are actually fun. Still, the Vox video reveals how close it comes to prog-rock; it's impressive that songs with constant time and key changes sound more proto-punk.

The Dead Boys
The Saints
The Damned
Richard Hell

I quite like some individual songs by those guys, and i certainly don't dislike them. But having listening to at least one or two albums front-to-back by those guys, and plenty of individual tracks via radio, etc., all i can muster is a shrug. If i was on a cross-country trip and their albums were playing, I'd be fine. But that's as far as it goes.

I do quite like the New York Dolls, but not nearly as much as their legend would suggest. Guess you had to be there. They've never been near the Stooges and Velvets (or Modern Lovers, or Simply Saucer, or Can) at the top of my proto-punk pantheon. "Proto-punk Pantheon'! That should be a title for...something. However, The Heartbreakers recently-discovered cassette-mix of "LAMF" is as great as I'd always heard the Dolls were.

Guess I'm the stereotypical Beefheart fan - I find "Trout Mask Replica" to be a masterpiece that I never seem to tire of. i just lose myself in it. But not til I was in my '40s! "Safe as Milk" was my first Beefheart purchase, a fine bit o' Nuggets rock with eccentric touches (theremin!). Any alt- or garage-rock fan should dig it no problem.



Post Edited (08-26-18 11:27)

Yeah, I agree about the Dead Boys. Their best songs originated with Rocket From the Tombs, and the rest of their work makes them sound like misogynist frat boys who wanted to be the punk version of AC/DC but weren't nearly as talented. But the Saints' ETERNALLY YOURS & PREHISTORIC SOUNDS delved into unfashionable-for-the-time infuences like Stax soul, and to me, the Damned only became a major band after they broke up and then got together again to make MACHINE GUN ETIQUETTE & THE BLACK ALBUM. Maybe Bob Quine and Ivan Julian deserve as much of the credit for BLANK GENERATION's success as Hell himself, but it's a great album.



Post Edited (08-26-18 17:26)

The Aints release their new album, The Church of Simultaneous Existence this month. A lot of the songs are from the time of the first three Saints albums. Kuepper has the Sunnyboys’ Peter Oxley on bass and the live shows of the last few months are said to be huge.



Post Edited (08-30-18 21:43)

I find TWENTY JAZZ FUNK GREATS and Throbbing Gristle singles like "Something Came Over Me" and "United" relatively tuneful and listenable, if obviously aiming for a menacing atmosphere. And they helped pave the way for a lot of electronic dance music to come. When I listen to mid '80s Chicago acid house, it sounds like a mix of the danceable side of industrial music (a la 23 Skidoo, D.A.F. and Cabaret Voltaire) with the electronic strains of disco.

Quote

Allow yourself to join me in losing some hipster credibility.

We all know who the 200 or so 'godfathers of punk / new wave' are supposed to be. i.e. The velvet underground, can, stooges, kraftwerk, etc etc ...I know you know what I mean.

Are there any of them that you've tried to get with, but JUST CAN'T figure it out?

For me, a big one is captain beefheart.

Captain Beefheart isn't punk/new wave any more than Led Zeppelin was heavy metal.

I like Beefheart fine but don't consider him punk even in the broadest sense of the term or certainly not more than say Zappa.

The Dolls/Heartbreakers (LAMF Lost 77 Mixes CD is the one for me!) to me are more to my taste than the Velvets or Stooges - love them too of course but those both seem much more "had to be there" to me - the Dolls at least on record are funny and relatable to me, all the songs are approachable - there's less to "get" - nothing off-putting in lyrical subject matter or avant-garde directions to me.

The Saints 2nd album and Machine Gun Etiquette are classics but I don't rate either band much beyond those - they just outpaced their previous work. Dead Boys are also rans and Richard Hell is a mostly marginal figure who wrote a couple of crucial songs and was in bands that got better once he left them. His name exceeds his work.

For me, I guess Gang of Four would be a head scratcher too........

I had a similar experience with Trout Mask over the years. I appreciated its uniqueness but liked other Beefheart records better (Doc at the Radar Station, Ice Cream For Crow). But every ten years or so I'd purchase another copy (usually when a cheap one appeared in the used bins) and give it another shot.

This last time (just a few months ago) I finally cracked the code. I've always thought of it like the blues played as free jazz, but that rational viewpoint wasn't quite enough. The past couple of years I've listened mainly to jazz, with plenty of free jazz in that mix, and now that my ears are more acclimated to that kind of improvisational sound, Trout Mask finally made sense.

Thanks mr Tolund, well said. I've heard a thousand critics and indie-hipsters tell me it's tortured blues... and maybe it is. But listening from a free jazz perspective is NOT crazy.

Of course I always knew Beefheart wasn't "punk /new wave"....but clearly noticed how many early new wave artists praised him in interviews. And it seemed like it wasn't just because he was 'cool and different'. They loved his music, and even though it sounded nothing like theirs, I wanted to 'get it' like they did.

TROUT MASK REPLICA strikes me as a mix of blues, prog and free jazz, but the uncompromising attitude behind it and the way it's recorded (with sound levels going in the red and distorted guitars) seem proto-punk. Yes were never going to record a sound called "Dachau Blues" (or even Muddy Waters, for that matter.) However, no punk bands actually sounded like it. I can see its influence on No Wave and some post-punk artists, especially those that flirted with skronky jazz and sprung rhythms like Blurt, the Fire Engines and Glaxo Babies. (Ornette Coleman also cited Beefheart on his more rock-oriented albums like BODY META & DANCING IN YOUR HEAD.) Beefheart himself said he disliked most rock music because he thought it was too simple rhythmically, but I can swear I can hear the influence of punk and post-punk returned in DOC AT THE RADAR STATION. It's probably through the Magic Band rather than himself.

There are so many supposed godfathers of the genre that never resonated with me. Perhaps that's because I got to a lot of this music backwards, following stuff from the 1990s into its origins. But I don't own any Kraftwerk or Can, or much Velvet Underground, or any Ramones. I don't actively dislike those bands (don't get me started on the Eagles) but never thought to purchase anything. My tastes in punk run toward the pop end of the spectrum, like Buzzcocks and Undertones. I owned Trout Mask Replica and listened to it a number of times before giving it away....

I do hear Beefheart's influence in the herky-jerky rhythms and outrageous, surreal lyrics of new wave. Early Devo, XTC, Gang of Four, This Heat, Birthday Party, etc would all be fairly unimaginable without the Cap'n. If nothng else, like the Velvets, he gave the punk wavers permission to get way out.



Post Edited (08-27-18 11:58)

For me, I don't get VU or Lou Reed. I haven't given VU half the chance that I've given Lou solo, but whenever I do hear a VU song I simply don't get the appeal. The last time I heard any song by VU was "Rock and Roll" at a restaurant recently and I was struck by how awful it was. Lou solo is not much better in my book, but I can at least say there is a song or two that I don't mind...which is still a long ways from liking and wanting to hear his music.

I'll accept that they were influential in some regard, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

I don't like the Ramones in the slightest, yep I said it. There are pieces of their songs that are obviously ingrained in my head from hearing snippets all over the sun (movies, commercials, etc). But I don't own one single Ramones song in any format. For whatever reason I just don't like them. I have learned to like many of the other CBGB era bands though. At first I did not really like Television all that much, I think at first because I had not heard much of them. The song Marquee Moon, thought it was ok but not stop the presses and that was the only one I really knew. But finally I got hold of a decent pressing of that full album and wow! With headphones on, man could those dudes play their instruments, especially the guitars and drums, damn!

Have to admit it's kind of refreshing to hear what people CAN'T get behind. No bashing, just admitting they don't get what all the fuss is about!

I've been reading rock journalism for about 40 years now. And I've started to realize recently that some of the best reads are what I'll call 'unexpected praising'.

Like if a writer does a compelling argument why the 4th Ratt album is more inventive than say Bowie's Berlin trilogy. We all know this is most likely preposterous, but it's more fun to read than another praising of Bowie and Eno.

I love Beefheart, but Trout Mask Replica isn't the album I reach for when I'm in the mood for the Captain's mojo. In fact, I don't recall the last time I listened to it. I usually turn to his final trifecta -- Shiny Beast, Doc at the Radar Station and Ice Cream for Crow.

I am by and large fine with every Godfather of Punk and New Wave. I don't own any Dolls but I think they're fine. Where I struggle, is with Joy Division - the elephant in the room of Post-Punk. I sort of like them and this doesn't seem to be the norm. A friend gave me the Heart + Soul box in 2002-3 and I listened to it once and sold it off. I only got a greatest hits comp last year. A little goes a lot over a loooooong time with me. Maybe it's because of the timing. I never heard them until after "Closer" came out and by that time the deed had been done and it hung over the band like a pall. I couldn't approach Joy Division without bumping into it. But give me OMD's Joy Division influenced "Organisation," and I get very enthused.

Former TP subscriber [81, 82, 83, 84]

[postpunkmonk.com]
For further rumination on the Fresh New Sound of Yesterday®



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2020 08:57AM by Post-Punk Monk.

Monk, I can't get into JD, either...and I make no apology for it. Their earlier stuff is terribly half-baked with Ian Curtis' vocals being a huge drawback for me. Closer was more accomplished...but then that was the end.

About the only "godfather of punk" whose appeal/virtue is lost on me is Can. I'll just leave it at that.

Interesting, though, to see comments about Joy Division. Like Monk, I had never heard of the band until after Curtis' death. I checked into their music based on the strength of a review in Rolling Stone. I bought Unknown Pleasures, listened to it on headphones, and was enthralled from start to finish. The music hasn't lost any of its potency for me since.

"I may not have played Happy Jack more than five times since that day I bought it, even though I never got rid of it (those Class albums that you just don't get any kicks out of will all reveal their worth and essential appeal someday, you always reason -- perhaps you yourself must become worthy of them) ..."

Lester Bangs, "Psychotic Reactions and Carburetor Dung: A Tale of These Times," Creem, June 1971

Throbbing Gristle.

These guys get heaps of avant cred, and I'll give 'em the occasional outstanding track like "Hamburger Lady," but they never seemed to have much imagination. Not nearly as outrageous and radical (or painful) as they seem to think they are/were. Lots of turning on clattering drum machines, making some cool noises, futzing around over 'em without any song structure. Like if you removed Wall of Voodoo's songwriting and just left the drum machines and funny sounds.



Post Edited (08-30-18 16:54)

I'd forgotten all about Throbbing Gristle. I guess that says something ... as in, I didn't view them as a "punk godfather band." More like a "stupid band I don't have any need for."

They did invent the phrase "industrial music" so they do usually get the "pioneer" tag.

The mention of Throbbing gristle made me realize my original intent. These are bands who you may appreciate, and perhaps be glad they exist, but you sure as hell don't sit around playing their albums for pleasure!

Social Distortion were first-generation SoCal punks who've never done a thing for me, and I'm pretty generous when it comes to both LA's hardcore and roots-rock scenes. Bands like X and the Gun Club are gods to me, but I couldn't tell you one SD song that I really love. They're ok, don't hate 'em. But am I missing something?

This is a very common response. They don't sound actively bad to me, but really bland at both punk and roots-rock, although they wound up becoming quite popular by becoming the two.

Part of Social D's problem, to me, is that they found their groove early on and have doggedly stuck to it. They've been basically remaking their third, self-titled album over and over for decades, and it's a pretty narrow path to take. Mike Ness also has a thematic obsession - even a drug counselor pal of mine got sick of his constant "I used to do drugs, it was stupid, now I'm better and kick ass" message on what seemed like every song.

That said, I think they're smart in making an album only once every eight years or so. If you don't listen to the radio (and I don't much), it's enough time for you to miss them. And to my ears they're still capable of coming up with at least one killer rocker per record, even if it's pretty clear they'll never make a truly great album again (if they ever did). And I can attest to them still being a good live band.

But yeah, it's kind of difficult to truly consider them one of the greats. They're just a little too...predictable.

Both times I saw them -- on the triple bill with Neil Young and Sonic Youth, and in a smaller, packed-to-the-gills venue -- Social D was great onstage. But I admit, I haven't been compelled to see them again. The above posts are right on the money. On record, Social D is capable of pulling off a couple of great rock tunes, but only a couple. They're welcome enough in my radio show, but not a band whose new releases stick with me. The Greatest Hits disc should be plenty.

I've said this before, but the dirty secret about Iggy is that his solo batting average is considerably less than .500. Ditto Lou Reed. (They've released some classic solo albums, but the time has long passed since I'd get any new Product from them without listening to it first.)

Talking Heads. Yeah they produced some classic stuff with Eno, but their pre/post-Eno stuff is "Okay..." but nothing I'd bother to spend $ on. (I'd say maybe it's from overexposure to "Psycho Killer" and "Burning Down The House", but I still groove to "Once in a Lifetime" the 1000th I've heard it so...)

Social D: Love their early stuff (Mommy's Little Monster, 1945), but never got into the whole "Ball & Chain" thang. In retrospect they probably stumbled upon The Formula circa Prison Bound and have stuck to it ever since.

Cabaret Voltaire's "Sensoria"/"Crackdown" era. I've tried and tried but a few exceptions aside it's pretty run-of-the-mill (let's just say in retrospect that Chris Wilson was more essential to the band than realized). And of course their "house" stuff scraped the bottom of the barrel. (The same could probably be said for any "industrial"-related/tagged band - Coil, Chris & Cosey, PTV, Laibach, SPK - that tried to find The Groove with less than favorable results).

And speaking of Industrial:

(Throbbing Gristle): Not nearly as outrageous and radical (or painful) as they seem to think they are/were.

Considering the time/place (mid-late 70's UK) they were pretty radical. I like them, but then again I also listen to Merzbow so take that as you will.