I don't know if I agree with the headline's premise, but I will say I'm hearing not only a lot of indie rock but a lot of outsider R&B (think Thundercat) drawing from this music.

From the Guardian.

My question is: how do bands like Everything But the Girl, Prefab Sprout and Swing Out Sister fit into this? Since this is a story in the Guardian, I thought they might address that.

It's tempting to say mostly bad music (except for Steely Dan notably) eventually will come back in style based on that article.

I think Everything But the Girl, Prefab Sprout and Swing Out Sister owe some of their style to Balearic and New Order's Technique (even if they predate it). That was a crucial record that I remember striking a lot of these same feelings. That might be the hipster tipping point at that time except now its been replaced by a possible smirking self awareness added in.

The "sophistication" part of it is troubling to me because its almost as if your drawn to something you're not - as opposed to punk rock expressing something you genuinely feel.............but that's a very Rockist thing to say I suppose.

From the article:

> And there is an entire US radio station dedicated to "smooth-sailing soft rock from
> the late 70s and early 80s ... The kind of rock that doesn't rock the boat!"

I realize that almost nobody wants to hear hard, fast, energetic music all the time. (I certainly don't turn up my nose at Steely Dan, though I'll never pay to see them live again. And I don't really dislike Michael McDonald.) I'm certainly aware that punk is not everyone's ideal of rock. And of course, for a lot of people, those yacht/soft-rock songs are the soundtrack to their high-school years ... and I have to remind myself that not everyone shuns such reminders. And, true confession: I'm going to see Al Stewart in two weeks.

All of that aside ... a tag-line like the one above fills me with the urge to go to that station and slap the shit out of the DJ on the air.

I was born in 1969 so my early years as a kid were spent sitting in my room playing with legos and listening to AM radio. I remember, at age 6, telling my dad my favorite song in the world was "Hotline" by the Sylvers. I had a steady stream of Doobies, Loggins-Messina, Steely Dan and America, et al. all through my adolescent years.

Around age 11 and 12 stuff like Blondie, OMD, Devo, Stray Cats and MTV hit videos from Duran Duran, Human League and Naked Eyes were added to the mix. I didn't live in a hip town so the primary delivery method was still what was on the Radio.

At age 16 I got a job and started buying records. A buddy of mine recommended "The Head on the Door" by the Cure and it literally cracked my brain. I went out and bought the "Trouser Press Guide to New Wave Records" and started educating myself on the music that didn't get played on local radio.

Now that I am on the back end of 40 I find myself revisiting the so called "Yacht Rock" stations on Spotify from time to time. I completely realize that it is total nostalgia for the innocence of youth. I am boggled that I still know the words to songs I haven't heard in 40 years.

I still prefer The Cure to Michael McDonald but every once in a while it's a nice place to visit and I still find this song damn catchy:

[www.youtube.com]

I think Steely Dan and RUMOURS-era Fleetwood Mac were legitimately great bands, and if anyone thinks Steely Dan's music was an escape from '70s reality, they didn't listen very hard to the words. Even Mac songs like "Dreams" and "Go Your Own Way" have an edge that wasn't apparent at the time - they were written by musicians who had to spend an awful lot of time working and traveling with former lovers they pretty much hated. As I grow older, it seems increasingly apparent to me that the punk rulebook about what's cool to like was just as blinkered as the hippie rulebook - or rather, it made sense for 18-year-olds in 1977 but doesn't make sense for me as a 45-year-old in 2017. But I'm not really interested in Loggins & McDonald beyond their collaboration with Thundercat, and the best thing Daryl Hall did was his solo album produced by Robert Fripp, SACRED SONGS, and providing a sample source for De La Soul's "Say No Go." At the same time, I don't hate McDonald or. Hall & Oates either, but I'm not interested in yacht-rock crate-digging.

“People thought having to listen to my music was like having to swallow dish detergent” - Michael McDonald

I'd say that Michael McDonald is smarter than I ever gave him credit for! Some people still think that! I gladly fess up!

Except for Steely Dan, who had jazz chops and proto-punk brains, all of that 70s slop stinks to my ears! It was decadent and slack to me. Fleetwood Mac and The Doobie Brothers were galling to me then…and especially so 40 years later!!

There was a huge difference between UK 80s bands like EBTG, Prefab Sprout and Swing Out Sister and those 70s clowns because the latter were drawing from a 60s MOR/Jimmy Webb/Bacharach/David template that was - crucially - absolutely unhip in the "hip" 70s period where the likes of The Mac established dominance. The 70s was a decade where taste and class were sent packing. It still is to me. There was great music in the 70s… some of the best ever [Roxy, Bowie, Krautrock, Punk, Post-Punk], but it was largely in the margins. Musical cream definitely did not rise to the top; at least in America, where Roxy Music was a footnote and even Bowie's best work was practically unknown at the time.



Post Edited (10-28-17 09:20)

Former TP subscriber [81, 82, 83, 84]

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For further rumination on the Fresh New Sound of Yesterday®

Fleetwood and Doobies were the perennial examples of anti-TP. The ones that make me run for skatepunk. I've since come to appreciate Buckingham's chops and Johnston's arrangement skills. But I can't even type the other guy's name.

Likewise there are elements of Steely Dan I appreciate today. But to actually listen to any of them...

But the thing I like to point out about '70s chart fodder; in the first years of the decade, hard rock charted as well as goofy greats like Troglodyte. You could turn on AM and get a real mixed bag.

tldr=
Life is too precious/skatepunk at heart





edit::execrable & egregious spelling



Post Edited (10-29-17 05:58)

Ooooh. "Troglodyte!" Now there's a record that my seven year old self just loved. I still own the 45!



Former TP subscriber [81, 82, 83, 84]

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Pretty soft.

The revival of soft rock, as highlighted in recent discussions, often intersects with indie rock and outsider R&B, making bands like Everything But the Girl, Prefab Sprout, and Swing Out Sister relevant in this context. These groups blend catchy melodies with sophisticated arrangements, often incorporating elements of jazz and soul that resonate with contemporary genres. Their music's emotional depth and lush production appeal to today’s listeners seeking a blend of nostalgia and modernity. The Guardian likely explores how these bands influence current artists, showing that soft rock's charm continues to inspire innovative sounds in the indie and R&B scenes, proving its timeless appeal.

Actually, with regard to Swing Out Sister - aren't they still fairly popular in Japan? They are pretty much relegated to "one hit wonder" status in the U.S. and U.K., but they still record and tour on a lot of new music that still gets decent distribution elsewhere.

Actually, the US and Japan are their primary markets. When I saw them in 1993 in Atlanta at the Variety Playhouse in Little Five Points, I was surprised to see that half the audience was African American, and they had the Japanese import CDs to get autographed the same as me. They still manage to occasionally tour here every now and then but I've not had the pleasure in a long time.



Former TP subscriber [81, 82, 83, 84]

[postpunkmonk.com]
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I'm not sure soft rock being "cool" was ever really true, partly because too many late-comers were indulging in it like it was little more than camp, and the few arguments I've heard supporting its merits sounded very thin and shallow. At the same time, I never thought Steely Dan was "soft rock," and lumping them in with those acts only betrayed one's inability to discern the actual qualities of any music. How many other soft rock records had the kind of lyrics Steely Dan had or had the kind of solos you'd find on their best records? It's not even remotely close.

As for the other acts mentioned, Toto will always be terrible - Weezer's cover of "Africa" only re-affirmed that for me as well as how far they've fallen since their first two albums - and the Doobie Brothers always sounded like generic, formulaic rock to me, meaning simple pleasures relying way too heavily on the same narrow range of riffs and hooks. I think Robert Christgau said they only grasped greatness once with "What a Fool Believes," and I actually agree even though I find the later years to be very bland - it doesn't reinvent what they were doing with Michael McDonald, they simply came up with an intriguing song about romantic delusion that undercuts the catchy sweet smoothness of the music.

Anyway, main reason for posting is Hall & Oates. Spent the morning binging through a few mainstream '80s records I hadn't heard in a while, including a Tears for Fears compilation (a solid listen, they come off best as a singles band IMHO, and a really good one at that) and John Mellencamp's The Lonesome Jubilee (he never made a consistent album, they're all marred by serious lapses in the lyrics, but this one held my interest end to end simply on the basis of the immaculately arranged and executed music - could be his best album).

To my surprise, a compilation of Hall & Oates singles was the least of the bunch - even at their catchiest and most familiar, there's something chintzy about their records. The only ones that escape this feeling were probably their earliest hits, "She's Gone" and "Sara Smile," both sounding like classic Philly soul without coming off as formulaic, and "I Can't Go For That (No Can Do)" which is possibly their most timeless hit (might've inspired "Billie Jean," became a crucial element in one of De La Soul's greatest records). But everything else has something corny and lousy about them - they all sound like theme songs to mediocre network television shows.

When their revival came about, it felt like a joke until you read the arguments on paper: the Temptations loved them; they were adopted by the brilliant arrangers and producers at Atlantic Records but rebelled even against them to work with Todd Rundgren and later Robert Fripp of all people, and both of them plus Rick Nielsen and George Harrison later played on the same album; Elvis Costello asked Hall to record a duet with him; they were prominent participants in Sun City; everyone from Questlove to Win Butler (before everything went to shit for him and Arcade Fire) were now championing them...but what's there doesn't live up to the expectations. At least with someone like the Doors, I can see how they were important influences over Patti Smith and Iggy Pop even if I strongly disliked most of their music. With Hall & Oates, it's a legacy that doesn't seem to add up to much or leave a particularly deep imprint.

I think the main reason soft rock got cool (such as it is) was the invention of the name Yacht Rock. Prior to that, "soft rock" or "light rock" were just descriptors for radio stations that could play in the lobbies of dentist offices without getting anyone agitated. Those weren't genre names, or at least weren't genre names that got anyone worked up enough to have a discussion about said genre. But then the Yacht Rock tag came along, and it raised questions and stirred discussion. "Yacht Rock? What does that mean? Would George Benson be considered Yacht Rock? The Carpenters? How about Sade? Oh, she's Sophisti-Pop? But is Sophisti-Pop just the UK version of Yacht Rock?"

The fact that "Yacht Rock" originated from a fairly obscure web series meant using the phrase gave its early adaptors a charge to their hipster cred points for knowing what it was and being able to explain it to their friends. And "Yacht Rock" being a phrase that cool people knew and used conferred some of that coolness to Yacht Rock itself. Even now, any time some online publication publishes a list of The 10 Greatest Yacht Rock Songs, the comments section will inevitably be filled with clueless Madges and Marvins protesting "This article is stupid! None of these songs are about yachts!!!" and then you can audibly hear through your web speakers the patient and patronizing sigh of The Man in the Know who has to step in and school the bumpkins about the now twenty year old memo they've still managed not to read. The irony being that the people explaining what Yacht Rock is would have been Yacht Rock's sworn enemies in days of yore, and the people they're explaining it to are generally the people who genuinely and unironically bop to Peter Cetera tunes on the radio.

"Yacht Rock" bestowed genre status on a bunch of stuff that had previously just been floating around out there as a mass of moo that no one gave much thought to, and genre status leads to discussion and codification and these things lead to a bump in credibility and coolness. I'm sure that Sirius had light rock stations before Yacht Rock came into usage, but no one listened to them - they existed just to provide unobtrusive background noise for businesses that valued stress-free environments. But Yacht Rock! There's something Sirius can promote, and make it an event every summer when they bring back (or at least promote the hell out of) the Yacht Rock channel.

Back in the 80s when the first trade paperback collection of Love and Rockets comics came out, the introduction to the book (I don't remember who wrote the intro) made the argument that at that point in time comics had never been taken seriously as an art form in America because they had no established body of criticism. Comics were just this disposable medium for kids and a few sad, pathetic nerds who refused to grow up. No one took them seriously enough to take them seriously. But by the time that Love and Rockets collection was published, the medium was finally beginning to achieve enough critical mass that the cultural mavens could step in and declare "Well now! Perhaps there is more to funnybooks than just keeping the wee tykes occupied in the automobile ride to the grandparents'." And it didn't just apply to obviously higher-minded stuff like Love and Rockets and Maus - soon previously dismissed purveyors of cheap disposable trash like Jack Kirby and Carl Barks and Harvey Kurtzman were being acknowledged as visionary geniuses. Back in the 80s, you could buy a page of original Jack Kirby art for Kamandi for probably twenty bucks. Good luck doing that nowadays without taking out a second mortgage.

Anyhow, bestowing genre status on music performs the same sort of function. It gives people who want to debate stuff some meat to chew on. It defines rules and boundaries and establishes canon. It encourages defenders to do battle with detractors. And that's what "Yacht Rock" did. Prior to that genre-naming, no one gave any thought to Soft Rock or Light Rock or Adult Contemporary because those weren't official things. They were just descriptions for the format for radio stations that existed to be unobtrusive and inoffensive. But Yacht Rock is a thing. And that inevitably leads to discussion and analysis and fandom. And fandom is always going to confer a few cool points above thing that is too nebulous for anyone to care about.

This is a terrific explanation. Some genre names are inherently insulting, like "hair metal" and "mumble rap." "Yacht rock" sounds cool, and it also gives the sound an umbrella it didn't really have circa 1980.

I would add “ Krautrock“ and “shoegaze“ to the list of snarky genre names (thanks a lot, British music writers!) But unfortunately, we seem to be stuck with them.

That is a good way of describing it, Delvan. Like what happened when the “poptimism” concept became applied to the usually overlooked crappy assembly-line top 40 pop .

Most top 40 pop, and 70s soft rock, are still crap. But as you said, now they have a genre status, and are thus somewhat more credible than before.

I think attendant social movements associated with music are also a guarantee of critical respectability. Has there been a more examined musical movement than the 60s, the Beatles, etc.? It’s always tied in with all the social movements happening during that era. Punk, and hip-hop were also part of social scenes with their own subcultures: language, visual art style, etc. As opposed to things like soft rock and top 40 pop which are seen as merely sounds. There wasn’t much for cultural critics to really dig their teeth into.

The main thing I learned from listening to the Sirius Yacht Rock channel was that, if you really listen to the lyrics, "Wildfire" is the story of a man losing his mind from sleep deprivation because an owl outside his bedroom window has kept him awake for a week, resulting in him hallucinating a ghost girl and horse.