Re: Topper vs. DJ Bonebrake

Inspired by the comments on other threads about the great drummers and convinced that we can never have enough silly lists on this board, how about a list of the best drummers in punk/rock/new wave/alternative/whatever? Leaving aside obvious oldies like Moon and Bonham and Ginger Baker, here's a few off the top of my head:

Topper Headon, Clash
DJ Bonebrake, X
Damon Che, Don Caballero/Bellini
Rey Washam, Scratch Acid/Rapeman
Peter Moffett, Gov't Issue/Burning Airlines
John Wright, Nomeansno
Stewie Copeland, Police
Mac Macneilly, Jesus Lizard/86
Dave Grohl, Scream/Nirvana/Foo Fighters/QOTSA
John McEntire, Bastro/Tortoise/a thousand others

I'm sure I'm leaving out some obvious ones....

Funny about Dave Grohl, I always thought the "The Rhythm Beating" from "Banging the Drum" had fantastic drumming and that was the competent Kent Stax just before Grohl joined. Which leads me to this - I've always kind of thought that stating the best guitarist, drummer, keyboardist, etc... tiresome. Because in the end, is the song any good? is all that matters to me. Keith Moon isn't going to make an Ashlee Simpson song sound any better (more fun to watch though).

I guess I'll be a wise guy (and the first of many) and say that no one played more precisely than Big Black's Roland

I agree with your observation for the most part, but I was re-listening to parts of Madonna's Like A Virgin LP as part of an 80's mix list and thought that most of the songs on there succeed because of the backing band: most of the former Chic., esp. Tony Thompson, who was another one of the great drummers of all time. Material Girl really hits hard because of this, and I don't think it would work as well without him.

Even ABC's Alphabet City works pretty much because of Thompson and Bernard Edwards.

So I think the rule could be amended to be the "If the backing band includes members of Chic, The Attractions, or The Egyptians (Morris and Andy!), then the song is improved" rule.

Damn, I cannot sleep lately, and that leaves me too much time to think.
David

clem burke.

Clem Burke is God.

drummers not mentioned yet - 2 that totally motivated me to play:

Robert Gotobed (wire)
+
David Narcizo (throwing muses)

both whipped up some seriously complex rhythms

for power:
Gabe Katz (Blind Idiot God)

and taking it ol'school:

Art Blakey

Apparently The Who were sniffing around Midnight Oil's Rob Hirst in the '80s. He's pretty amazing to watch.

Seeing a drummer live is when it all comes home.

Hilarie Sidney (does the most from the simplest kit)
Bobby Schayer - BR (now retired)
King Coffey - with or w/out teresa; both were great
Steve Shelley - the true secret behind the band
Rat Scabies - people underestimate his talent
Chris Frantz - those were tricky signatures
Martin Chambers - (thanx James K); check out Tatooed Love Boys
Frickin Grant Hart, baby!
Phil Collins - just to clean the palate
Chris Acland - tortured genius
Derrick Bostrom - was something to behold when backing the bros
George Hurley - tie with Bonebrake??
Georgia Hubley - where do I begin? Maybe with the mallets. Check the tracks on Painful. In the top 3 with Bonebrake and Hurley
Budgie - listen closer; polyrhythmia
Janet Weiss - watch a set, watch your jaw
Todd Trainer - thanx satchmykels
(wow, 3 females on my list)

Also, drumming genius - Mickey Hart; his book is a must read even if you hate the band. Hell, even if you hate music. It's that good.

Saw the Clash twice but not with Topper. Favorite Clash bootleg: US Festival (no Topper); favorite Clash LP is also Topperless. Makes it hard to over-credit the man perhaps?

NP: Datura Seeds



Post Edited (02-03-06 04:36)

Hugo Burnham: G o 4
Clem Burke: Blondie
Ritchie teeter: Dictators
Jerry Nolan: Dolls, Heartbreakers
Martin Atkins: Killing Joke, Public Image, Pigface
Grant Hart: Husker Du
Scott Krauss: Pere Ubu
Chris Frantz: Talking Heads
Fred Maher: Material
Stanley Demeski: Feelies
Stewart Copeland: The Police

I'm already on record with Burke and Jaki Leibezeit.

Stewart Copeland live was a wonder to behold, no doubt about it.

John Maher, the Buzzcocks.

What's his name from Bow Wow Wow - dunno if he was all that good, but he sure was hyperactive.

Perhaps for Bow Wow Wow you'd have to say "best rhythm section", some of the bass playing is stupendous.
The NME (them again!) listed their best ever drummers and it was the usual, Rick Buckler, Reni etc. and they were inundated with letters of complaint for leaving out Jaki Leibezeit.

X played blindingly fast tempos, put Bonebreak never used the jackhammer speed-thrash style that pummel the songs into the ground - he could SWING. He kept the train a-rollin', but with a light touch.

Apart from Stan Ridgeway's absence, another reason latter-period Wall of Voodoo sucked was the absence of the late Joe Nanini's bag of percussive tricks that added so much color to Stan-era WoV.

And - hello?! - Tommy Ramone, of course. He had no prior drumming experience, which explains his no-frills simplicity, but not how he could play so fast.

will rigby (db's, etc)
linda pitmon (steve wynn's miracle 3, zuzu's petals, mike hunt band)
steve mehlman (ubu, rftt, terminal lovers)
todd trainer (shellac, rifle sport, breaking circus, brick layer cake)
tommy rey (mighty mofos, funseekers, bastards, etc)



Post Edited (02-02-06 19:53)

George Hurley
Biscuit
Martin Chambers
Guy on third Flaming Lips record

dale bozzio of missing persons was often on magazine covers or doing drum clinics

> dale bozzio of missing persons was often on magazine covers or
> doing drum clinics



i believe dale was the chick...

terry bozzio played with that zappa freak, so i guess he had to be somewhat of a musician, eh?

I saw Terry Bozzio when he played drums behind Jeff Beck. He was astounding to listen to, and to watch.

Stewart Copeland is indeed a wonder to watch when he's playing live ... and his drumming has always been marvelous to listen to. On the Police's albums, Stewart's drums always sound really alive and fresh. Each cymbal and tom seem very much of the moment; they sound truly like drums played by a human being. (An exceptionally talented human being.)

As the Eighties progressed, and more and more producers seemed to subscribe to the Mutt Lange approach for rhythm tracks -- every drum beat has to sound identical and homogenized -- Stewart's particular style and swing and flair became very sorely missed.

Bonebrake is awesome, both on record and on stage. His drumming on "Sugarlight" alone sets him apart from practically every other drummer in punk.

BTW, I saw Phil Collins once, not with Genesis or as a solo star, but drumming behind Eric Clapton. Collins was quite good, and the show overall was excellent.

hey
you forgot all the good ones

benny benjamin
al jackson
ziggy modeliste
grant hart
hal blaine
ivor hay
levon helm
mick waller
robert wyatt
steve shelley

pete thomas is better than DJ
probably

hey i thought it was neuvo wavo or punkin drummin hence the exclusion of everyone from buddy rich to gene krupa, hal blaine, al jackson, levon helm,ziggy, wyatt, etc.

copeland and rigby??? (as new wavers and punkers that is...)

OK
then put hay, hart, thomas in...

what's tevesion? punk? new wave? ron house's home? none, but ficca is great



Post Edited (02-03-06 13:09)

Yeah, if we were expanding beyond "alternative" or whatever, Zig Modeliste should surely be on the list. And as for the others suggested, I think Will Rigby, Budgie, Pete Thomas, Billy Ficca, and George Hurley are fine nominees.

I beg to differ on Ivor Hay (merely adequate) and Grant Hart (busy, but not very precise or actually very good - and I think he'd concur).

As for Janet Weiss, I have seen her live a number of times and while she's fun to watch because she's pretty good and awfully damn cute, that's about all she is. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and note that I cannot name a single female drummer who is truly outstanding. Even the best ones - Janet, Sara Romweber, the chick from Unwound, the chick from Babe the Blue Ox - are pale shadows of the best male drummers. I'd love to be shown otherwise, but I've yet to be convinced.

Maybe that's a subject for another thread: name the outstanding female rock musicians (as opposed to performers, songwriters, singers, etc.). Sad to say, not all that many are coming to mind at present.

Mo Tucker - not technically proficient by any stretch, but an incredible genius at using the talent she had. The Velvet Underground & Nico and White Light/White Heat would be much poorer albums without her.

It's good you mentioned Mo Tucker. Amidst all the brilliant noise the Velvets were able to conjure, in many songs it's her simple elementary drumming which one could say set the foundation and carried them.



Post Edited (02-05-06 21:21)

In fact, I'll go out on a
> limb and note that I cannot name a single female drummer who is
> truly outstanding. Even the best ones - Janet, Sara Romweber,
> the chick from Unwound, the chick from Babe the Blue Ox - are
> pale shadows of the best male drummers. I'd love to be shown
> otherwise, but I've yet to be convinced.


go back and listen to the last three steve wynn albums...better yet, see em live and watch what linda can do for yourself!


>
> Maybe that's a subject for another thread: name the outstanding
> female rock musicians (as opposed to performers, songwriters,
> singers, etc.). Sad to say, not all that many are coming to
> mind at present.


tara key would be a great guitar player even if she had an eight inch dick!

I did see Wynn with Linda on drums 3 or 4 years ago. I thought she was quite good and would put her in that list above of the best female drummers. But she's still no Peter Moffett.

It's interesting of you to mention Headon and Bonebrake. I've always found their drumming non-descript, so I'll check them out the next time I listen.

Billy Ficca is one underrated drummer. His playing with Television is not attention-grabbing, but if one pays attention you'll be amazed at how unorthodox the playing is while fitting and complimenting the song so well. It's hard to decide whether the guy's a genius or a natural. I'd like to pay more attention to his work with The Waitresses. Wonder if it's the same? It's fun to find out, if I can get my eyes and ears off Patty!

How about Charlie Watts? Perhaps the most perfect drummer in Rock. His drumming with the Stones is so simple yet so flawless that one can't help but admire it. The swishing sound he puts before the fade in "Stray Cat Blues" is as apt as any group of notes you could perfectly fit in a song.

I'd also like to squeeze in John Densmore. Those drum fills that he uses to highlight the dramatic tension in the oedipal section of "The End" is from a man who knows his band. He related in his autobiography that in the middle of a tour he quit because he couldn't stand Morrison and his antics. He was replaced, but after a few gigs the group faithfully called him back as the replacement couldn't get the feel of the group's sound, particularly in that song. One of the best and most steadiest.

It takes quite some effort to notice drummers in Rock, as their contributions are usually overshadowed by the vocals or guitars, or both. Not every drummer is as bombastic as Bonham or as fast as Peart. But appreciating one is quite a rewarding experience.

meg white live is good
Hole's first drummer ( Caroline something, sorry I'm on my TREO and can't google)
Lori from Babes in Toyland
Shelia E

granted, not the best, but damn good drummers non- the

Kudos to ficca..... Saw him with the waitresses, television, and Mar's Acid Jazz band once, truly amazing.

And where are drummers without great bassists?

My 10 faves:

Graham Maby (Joe Jackson band)
Peter Hook (Joy Division, New Order)
Jah Wobble (PiL)
Tina Weymouth (Talking Heads, Tom Tom Club)
Holger Czukay (Can)
Andy McCluskey (OMD - he's a madman on "Electricity.")
Dave Allen (Gang of Four, Shriekback)
Michael Lachowski (Pylon)
Bruce Foxton (The Jam)
Tony Levin (Peter Gabriel, King Crimson)

Yeah, I left out all the funk bassists, who are the REALLY great masters of the instrument, but I'm still trying to stick with the Punk/Alternative category

> And where are drummers without great bassists?
>


algy ward
kendra smith
kevin rutmanis
greg norton
david wm. sims

>Graham Maby (Joe Jackson band)
>Bruce Foxton (The Jam)

I can't believe you mentioned these two guys and not Bruce Thomas from the Attractions. All three are responsible for some of the most brilliant, melodic pop bass lines ever recorded.

Great list, though, overall.

> Lori from Babes in Toyland


hehe, she ain't even one of the better female drummers...

Actually if you've seen her play live, yeah she is a goodun.............for either gender

> Actually if you've seen her play live, yeah she is a
> goodun.............for either gender


aside from the man named mars, i've probably seen her play more than any other drummer...

only good thing i can say about her drumming, is that it's better than her singing.




ooooh, but kat and michelle more than made up for miss b's shortcomings!



Post Edited (02-07-06 15:10)

can't believe i forgot one of minneapolis' all-time great engine rooms...

paul erickson and jeff mooridian!


john anglim's gotta make my drummer list, too!

Resurrecting an old thread (and possibly two - see the "Guilty Pleasures" thread from a few years back): while listening to one of my guilty pleasures today - the first Big Country album - I decided I needed to include Mark Bryzecki or however the hell you spell his last name on the list of the best drummers. His work with Big Country, the Cult, and Pete Townshend is some pretty great shit.

Ah, but the fallacy here is that Big Country is a guilty pleasure. Nothing to feel guilty about if a band is actually good, as Big Country were, especially on that first album.

One of my pet peeves, which I have gone off about here on several occasions, is how many mid-80s bands (Big Country, OMD, Simple Minds, Tears for Fears, the Bangles) have gotten written off as guilty pleasures or MTV oddities or some such, when they were in fact damn good bands (for at least their first few albums, anyhow) and deserve to be remembered as such.

I will continue to rage at the heavens about this until things are put right.

And Bryzecki or however the hell you spell his last name was indeed a motherfucker. He and Tony Butler were a great rhythm section.



Post Edited (07-16-08 19:14)

I honestly think that a lot of the stigma with '80s bands comes from the slurpy production ambiance of much of the recordings of that era (and the really bad fashion). Some of the guitar tones of the '80s are simply unlistenable now--that can't be said of the '60s and '70s. What was it? Was digital recording in its infancy and therefore way imperfect? Was there just a tacky, plastic aesthetic?

Really late on this, but I'll try not to duplicate:

I used to be a professional percussionist, and played a lot of gigs in the OKC area, both as a rock drummer, jazz drummer and vibes player. The rock because I could bash and smash and read music (so I could sight read and replace anyone who needed to miss a gig, and the jazz because I was trained for it, though I was a better mallet player in that style. I say former percussionist because I gave it up to get a film degree, but that's a different story.

Truthfully, my brother is an amazing rock drummer, one of the best. If he hadn't gotten stuck here in Oklahoma, he might have had a chance. See The Candyguns website for more info. I am not exaggerating here.

John Badanjek -- Mitch Ryder's old drummer.
Any of Zappa's drummers, who always knew how to balance technique and power.

Stewart Copland always seems like he wants people to remember that he was talented, too. I admire his playing, but I remember that band Animal Logic he was a part of, with Stanley Clarke, and he always overplayed there. I can imagine that being stuck behind Mr. Sting might make you want to grab some attention, though.

I always thought INXS' drummer was much better than his band.

Colin Moulding was an underrated bass player, as was Terry Chambers ("pea-soup! pea-soup!") as a drummer.

Cheers.

Let me amend this. Stewart Copland live always seemed the need to show-off. After re-listening to some Police this morning, I remember that I had seen him play live 3-4 times when I came up with this opinion. Not that he's any less of a drummer for it, but sometimes he seemed to overwhelm the song. Great drummer, for sure.



Post Edited (07-18-08 09:02)

[www.myspace.com]

yeeeha, just brought it up and "Fuck You Shitbag" starts blaring out of my office.
Wonder what the corporate policy is on this one?

John, I'd like to see you in my office, please ...



Post Edited (02-08-06 14:04)

No list of great bassists is complete without Mike Watt and Mick Karn! And then there's Bill Laswell and what's-his-name from Primus (not exactly funk, anyway).

very true. Can't believe I forgot them.

Some already mentioned, but the first ones that popped in my head :

Drummers :

Jerry Nolan - Not subtle but knew how to keep it moving - especially with the Heartbreakers.

Stephen Goulding (The Rumour)

Reni (Stone Roses)

Jody Stephens (Big Star) - Heck, for "Back of a Car" alone he'd deserve mention.

Bassists :

Bruce Thomas definitely.

Clint Conley - not only great in and of himself but how his playing weaves in and out of the best MOB tunes

Peter Hook in his JD days

I agree on Peter Hook, at least in regard to his bass sound, if not any particular dexterity. I've always thought that his and Stranglers' bassist JJ Burnel's "lead bass" sound was pretty innovative and paved the way for, say, David William Sims' bass playing with the Jesus Lizard. And probably Clint Conley too, who is indeed another good 'un ("Weatherbox" is one of my favorite MoB songs).

I definitely side with Reno on the whole notion of "guilty pleasures." Whether an underrated '80s artist like Big Country (rest in peace, Stuart), or a sometimes-maligned act like Coldplay ... if I enjoy listening to it, I don't see why I should feel the least bit guilty about it.

It's not as though my wife's going to come home and catch me shutting off the stereo abruptly, and say, "You were listening to Abba again, weren't you? Jeez, you didn't even close the drapes!"

> Was digital recording in its infancy and therefore way imperfect? Was there just a tacky,
> plastic aesthetic?

Probably more of the second factor than the first one. Ry Cooder, for example, is an artist whom few would accuse of being "tacky." He did very well with digital recording, as early as 1979.

"Unlistenable," of course, is subjective. Can you suggest examples of '80s artists who employed guitar tones that are unlistenable today?

Quote

Can you suggest examples of '80s artists who employed guitar tones that are unlistenable today?

Any hair metal guitarist. Of course, they were unlistenable back then, too.

Except Def Leppard, Enuff Znuff & G&R. They all had their good points.

(Actually, my attitude towards hair metal in general has softened over the years. After nearly two decades now of not being bombarded with it anymore, it's much easier just to see it as a goof and to have a live and let live attitude towards it.)



Post Edited (07-17-08 12:12)

I was listening to Van Morrison's "Beautiful Vision" album (1982)--not by choice--and there is a lot of that prototypical sound I'm talking about, particularly on "Cleaning Windows" and "Dweller on the Threshold."

It gets even worse on Inarticulate Speech Of The Heart.

Which is a shame, cause when you hear those songs live [[i]Grand Opera House[/i]] or re-cut with the Chieftans, or taken out of their albums and compiled beside better songs, you realize the writing was as good as ever.

What I do give Van alot of credit for is that, when you hear that gauzey, synth production in the context of, for example "When Heart Is Open" (from Common One,) it seems like he may have had a genuine interest in Ambient music at the time. As I've said before, Common One is the missing link between James Brown and Music For Airports.

[Eno producing Van- that I'd like to hear]

That's a really insightful take on Common One. I actually happen to like Common One much better than most people and still listen to it. I wish that "Scandinavia" appeared on that album. You're right about the production too--"Wavelength" (from the late '70s) is a great song, as witnessed by the 1980 Montreux performance. But on the recording, it's hampered by a dated sound.



Post Edited (07-18-08 16:55)

> Actually, my attitude towards hair metal in general has softened over the years.

If we had known what sort of horrible ugliness the whole hard-rock scene was going to produce a decade or so later, we might have embraced hair metal. A lot of those '80s bands, at their best, could bring some decent songs to the table. Actual songwriting was all but forgotten in '90s post-grunge hard-rock/heavy metal, in favor of pounding beats, a lot of enraged screaming, and TRULY unlistenable guitars.

> After nearly two decades now of not being bombarded with it anymore, it's much easier
> just to see it as a goof and to have a live and let live attitude towards it.

That's a big part of my point. Some time around 1996, the monstrous beast of hard-rock squatted down with much discomfort and took a gigantic shit, and expelled out Limp Bizkit, Korn, Godsmack, Disturbed, Static X, and a lot of other disgusting bands. I heard all their crappy music and thought, "Jeez, when did rock stop being fun?"



Post Edited (07-17-08 16:08)

But even that crap managed to churn out the Deftones, who are great.

Even the most worthless genre seems to produce at least one gem.

Erik, I think you mentioned it previously, but you are writing a book on Van the Man? When is it coming out? How about a book about Blotto afterwards?

Yeah, I'm finishing up the first draft of my manuscript (The Words and Music of Van Morrison). No firm date yet, but I'm hoping summer of '09. Depends on the editing and back-and-forth on the back end with my publisher (Greenwood/Praeger).



Post Edited (07-18-08 11:07)

Glad someone mentioned JJ Burnel.
Can't believe the absence of Sly And Robbie here.

> Stewart Copland live always seemed the need to show-off.

That may have been true in his post-Police efforts ... and heck, maybe in his pre-Police efforts, for all I know. But to me, it was a different story in The Police.

Sting may have provided the songs and the voice, but his bass playing was more of an anchor role. Andy Summers was sort of a "watercolorist" on guitar, adding washes of sound. When it came to instrumental prowess, Stewart was the "front man" of the band.

Of course, the mark of a truly great band is that every member knows his role, and the parts fit together right. That's a big part of why The Police became so renowned as a band ... and why the post-Police efforts of all three members, from Sting on up, just haven't scaled those heights.