How goth do you get?

Its Halloween night. We should all be listening to spooky music tonight. The local tabloid published a nice list on the 100 Greatest Goth Songs of all time. Perusing the list, I realized how totally un-goth I am. I can relate zero to the subculture and find most of the stated representatives of the musical genre tuneless, mechanical, and unengaging. And yet there are some undeniable gems on this list, for sure, and I bet a few great tunes I've never heard.

As for the artists on this list, I am totally on board with: Joy Division, The Church (are they goth? I thought they were paisley underground), Nick Cave including Birthday Party, Echo and The Bunnymen (are THEY goth ??? so confused)

I am happy delving into: The Cure (though their so-called Goth stuff is sooo tuneless. A Forest, anyone?? Give me late 80s pop stuff instead), Chameleons UK, Sioxsie Sioux, Ministry, Dead Can Dance, Nine Inch Nails, etc,

Its when you starting getting into the true self-identifying goth acts that I start getting reluctant and uncomfortable: Killing Joke, Sisters Of Mercy, Peter Murphy, Bauhaus, Skinny Puppy, Type O Negative, Christian Death, etc. In small doses during fetish night at the club, it surely sounds good. But to actually listen to? On purpose?

Get into the deep cuts and more obscure acts and I am hopelessly lost, confused, and alienated: Clan of Xymox anybody? How about some Rasputina and Wolfsheim with your chicken fried steak?

This begs the question - how goth are you? Where do you fit yourself into the goth continuum? Are there a lot of great artists that worth discovering in there? Or is it basically yet another subculture with shitty music? Please advise.

Happy Halloween!
Nose



Post Edited (10-31-11 22:19)

OK, this one is pretty freaking menacing and awesome. Maybe there's more to this genre than I thought.

"I'd rather be a crying little pussy than a faggy goth kid"- Butters, South Park

Truth be told, though, I'm a little bit of both- at least on the inside.



Post Edited (10-31-11 23:04)

I've had a flirtation with goth (as I have with most rock genres) where I delved into it for a while. Over the years, though, I've found that I tire of it pretty quickly. I like a little Bauhaus, NIN and Christian Death now and again, but not as a heavy diet.

There are some exceptions, of course. I love Sisters of Mercy and black tape for a blue girl, for example. But I'd also argue that both those bands transcend the limitations of what we think of as "goth."

The Church goth? Um, no. What song did they cite? Ditto Echo. [Edit: I'm trying to access the list, but my computer is choking on the page.] [Edit 2: Got the page to load, finally. "Reptile" and "Under the Milky Way" goth? Seriously? Kind of casts doubt on the compiler's credibility. Some great songs on the list, though.]

I've never thought of Joy Division, Dead Can Dance or Nick Cave as goth. I can see the appeal to goth fans, but I think they're way too far outside the boundaries to be truly goth.

Now gothic - that's a different story. But there is a big difference between "gothic" and "goth," kind of like the difference between "beat" and "beatnik." I read a great book about a decade ago that explored this issue, which led me down some interesting paths. (Of course, it also induced me to read Poppy Z. Brite and Caitlin McKiernan, both of which were a waste of my time, especially the latter.)

In the sense of gothic - drawing from centuries of tradition in art, literature and architecture - Cave fits in. So do, oddly enough, the Green Pajamas, whose songwriter Jeff Kelly takes a lot of inspiration from that period of art and poetry.



Post Edited (11-01-11 10:23)

Toland:
"In the sense of gothic - drawing from centuries of tradition in art, literature and architecture - Cave fits in. So do, oddly enough, the Green Pajamas, whose songwriter Jeff Kelly takes a lot of inspiration from that period of art and poetry."

Dead-on in regard to the GP's. Don't miss their new country album.

I hear the same in The Walkabouts and The Triffids. I'd include also Tindersticks, Richard Hawley, and Mark Lanegan. There's got to be more, but those came to mind first.

The Walkabouts.....Horizon Fade
[www.youtube.com]

I admit to having more than a bit of Goth in my blood, but it's definitely more "old-school" (or newer more-dark-than-goth bands like The Vanishing) than the crap inflicted upon us by the like of the Cleopatra label in the 90s.

Whatever the genre, by definition, I delve into it. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Seriously, I side with Mr. Toland on this one. For my listening enjoyment, a little bit of goth goes a long way. Let me throw a song by The Cure, Bauhaus or Siouxsie & the Banshees into my weekly show, and I'm pretty good for the whole week. (And I don't remember the last time that anyone called in a request for more of the same.)

Welcome to everyone's favourite game show: Goth or NOT Goth?

...

Reminds me of the Lenny Bruce routine where he split up various things between two camps (Jew vs. Goyim).

Goth must be defined according to some sort of arcane miserableness factor. But being miserable doesn't make you goth. See how this works?

Goth is a miserable genre. Let's just get that out in the open all at once.

Forgive me if I missed anyone ...

Chameleons UK? Not goth. Not even really miserable.
Echo & The Bunnymen? A bit miserable, but not goth. Charlie don't surf and goth don't do camo fatigues.
Joy Division? Totally miserable, but oddly enough ... still not goth. Not enough lace.
The Church? So totally NOT goth. That's like claiming that The Byrds were goth (which may be the only genre they didn't flirt with - I dunno).
The Birthday Party - smelled a bit musty, but only goth based on fright-wig hair styles.
The Cure - goth pop. Fright-wig hair, make-up, miserableness (feigned or not). Guilty as charged, but still more of a pop band.
Siouxsie & The Banshees - Punk refugees in a goth wading pool. Essentially same rap sheet as The Cure.
Gene Loves Jezebel - lousy band. Goth or not? Who cares?
Dead Can Dance - gothy as all get out. Where did I leave my black lace handkerchief?

...

Killing Joke are goth? Damn. I nearly bought one.

I don't get the list either, but I'm going to cast my lot with This Mortal Coil my go-to goth act. And they've sort of covered the Byrds – "I Stand at Every Door" is actually a translation of a poem by Nâzım Hikmet with Pete Seeger's fingerprints all over it. It features the unfortunately named Louise Rutkowski on lead vocals.

Sidebar questions: Is Kate Bush goth? How about Florence & The Machine? Is this goth? Is this? In the words of classic non-goth gothics The Beautiful South, "I think the answer's yes, yes, yes, yes..."

Even Joy Division is not Goth? They're on the list like 9 times! What do I know.....



Post Edited (11-01-11 15:33)

No, Joy Division are definitely not goth - goth is fantasy/vampire/dress-up and JD are the complete stark opposite of all that, i.e.: reality.

They're dark, but so was Johny Cash sometimes. You never heard him singing about vampires. Anyway, The Cramps are my kings & queens of Halloween.

"The King & Queen of Halloween"

...

If that isn't already a Cramps song title, it should have been.

yardbirds-still i'm sad

'The band's dark and gloomy sound, which Martin Hannett described in 1979 as "dancing music with Gothic overtones", presaged the gothic rock genre. While the term "gothic" originally described a "doomy atmosphere" in music of the late 1970s, the term was soon applied to specific bands like Bauhaus that followed in Joy Division's wake. Standard musical fixtures of early gothic rock bands included "high-pitched post-Joy Division basslines usurping the melodic role" and "vocals that were either near operatic and Teutonic or deep, droning alloys of Jim Morrison and Ian Curtis." etc'

I guess its that gothic versus goth thing. Whatever Toland said.

Well guys, you need to cast a net pretty wide to make a list like that. Anyways Goth is like Glam... its more about the "look" than the style of music.
There's a lot of great music there and I have limited Goth tastes...One of my have current bands Alkaline Trio sounds nothing like those more traditional bands (more pop-punkish) but have all the Goth attitude I can take. I love the Misfits too...Goth-Punk anyone?

This is slightly off topic but yesterday I was watching Oggy And The Cockroaches which is one of the few kids shows my kids watch that I dig and noticed that Jack (he's a cat) put on a Dead Cat Dance CD.

Siouxsie, Damned, Bauhaus and JD are the pre-media goth.
Old school goth. It may have been first applied to the Damned and the Banshees but Bauhaus was the band that took it past outlook and lyrical influences and put it onto the sound (the spareness, the bass line, the atmosphere); though they had their influences as well.

One outgrowth was self-parody goth.

"goth is fantasy/vampire/dress-up"
That's certainly a media/outsider/mainstream pigeonholing of goth.
But does nothing to describe the actual genre.

all hippies refuse to bathe
all punk rock is just razor blades and mohawks
etc.



I get in moods where I listen to the original goth for days.

Gather around for a minute or two
And I'll admit something to you
I get intrigued when women look sinister
Call me superficial, but I stare at them Vampire Girls.

It's not the mascara,
It's not the tight dress,
It's the look in the eyes, gonna scare you to death.

I get so intrigued when they look like a vampire girl.

Does she cook beans? Does she cook rice?
Does she do ritual sacrifice?

Is she in heaven? Is she in hell?
Is she a sex industry professional?

If you fall for the ruse, buddy I won't laugh,
I believe I've fallen for it a couple times myself.

Over the years, I've been known to ask myself:

Might Emmeline Grangerford from "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" be a proto-goth?

"Another one was a young lady with her hair all combed up straight to the top of her head, and knotted there in front of a comb like a chair-back, and she was crying into a handkerchief and had a dead bird laying on its back in her other hand with its heels up, and underneath the picture it said "I Shall Never Hear Thy Sweet Chirrup More Alas."

She's dead. She's pale. She cried a lot.

Do me a favor? Just think about it, OK?

I'm reminded of this thread while listening to the first Blue in Heaven album All the Gods' Men. Their second record ain't goth at all, but this one could pass in dim lighting.