Dire Straits & Tom Petty

I seem to remember that the first couple of versions of the TP Guide had entries for Dire Straits and Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, which were pulled from later versions, I believe due to lack of relevance to alternative music. However, since then the TP Guide (and this site) has made room for the likes of Sheryl Crow, Hootie & the Blowfish, and Counting Crows (among others), all of whom I think are less deserving of inclusion here than Petty and Knopfler & co.

Of course, I may just think that because I like Petty & DS (MAKING MOVIES was a damn great album, and "Industrial Disease" from LOVE OVER GOLD is an underrated gem) while I dislike those others.

So what does anyone else think? Do Petty and Dire Straits deserve to be reinstated to TP's good graces?

yes

Egads. Thought you were just joking about Hootie.
I say no to all of the above, imo.
Once you 'go there', you have to start with the Grateful Dead who were, by several standards, the biggest indie band of all time.

The point of TP is...



Post Edited (01-03-06 20:51)

Petty and Dire Straits


yes; no

I was baffled when TP included Prince and Madonna. What is remotely alternative about them? They were as mainstream as it gets. Might as well review Michael Jackson. (Ira rubs chin in thought...).

MrFab wrote:

> I was baffled when TP included Prince and Madonna. What is
> remotely alternative about them? They were as mainstream as it
> gets. Might as well review Michael Jackson. (Ira rubs chin in
> thought...).


i'd like to take you back to 1980 so you can hear dirty mind with fresh ears...

yow!


errr, on second thought, i guess i'd need to go back alone and play it to the 1980 you. hehe, nevermind...

hehe, i'm always kinda baffled when i stumble upon this:

"Some misspellings are acceptable. For example, a search for "Sara McLaughlin," a common misspelling, will still turn up the "Sarah McLachlan" entry. Utter butchery of an artist's name won't work, but if you come close, chances are good you'll find what you want."

Okay. But if Madonna's included, then why NOT Cher? Or Celine, or Gloria Estefan? "Trouser Press presents: Divas Live on VH1!"

It'll be bigger then "Run's House"!

cher is disqualified based upon these

[www.monthlyherald.com]

Seems to me the TP guides always have had semi-fluid criteria for inclusion, especially given that the title kept changing too (new wave to alternative to 90s rock). I am glad that King Sunny Ade is in there and I love him, but it's a bit of a stretch to call him alternative too.

One rather subjective definition of "alternative," IMO, has always been: Music that makes your friends who have more mainstream tastes scratch their heads, wondering why on earth you like said music. By that definition, Prince absolutely qualifies. Satch is right: *Dirty Mind* was one of the more daring albums of its day.

Even as Prince achieved more mainstream recognition and popularity, he was still doing things with his music that 95 percent of the competition couldn't touch. And looking back at the twists and turns his career has taken since his '80s peak, I'd say he's been as "alternative" as just about any other artist you can name.

Plus, when it comes to live performance, Prince has few equals, and no betters, IMO.

Well, all this has simply made me crave a Cher entry.

Personally, I'd be very glad to see ALL the old reviews, from all five volumes, put back on this web site, just for the sheer interest of reading them. Who knows? It may rekindle interest in an artist that you'd written off years ago, on the grounds that they weren't really "alternative."

Tom Petty? Not alternative, IMO; probably never was. He came out in 1977, with a sound that was more raw, tough and urgent than most of the stuff on mainstream American rock radio. So his music stood in good stead with a lot of the "new wave" stuff that was coming out the following year. That's probably why he landed in the first TP Guide ... and he probably got taken out of the next edition, when it became clear that he was on more of a mainstream career path. (I seem to recall that Pat Benatar had an entry in the first TP Guide too.)

I can't imagine anyone considering the Rolling Stones "alternative," but that doesn't stop Paganizer from loving them, or from extolling their virtues on this "alternative" board. And I've seen a thread or two here where people have admitted to their favorite "classic" artist(s).

Like Jagger & Richards, Petty and Mike Campbell, his lead guitarist and co-writer, have plenty of good songs to their credit. I saw TP & the Heartbreakers live last summer, for the first time, and enjoyed every minute of it.

Dire Straits? Like Reno, I *love* the album *Making Movies* from start to finish. Not a wasted note or lyric on that whole album. And none of the band's other studio albums is worthless. But alternative? I wouldn't say so. (I saw them once too; they came across as pretty canned. Perhaps an off night, judging from what I've heard others say, but their live albums have always seemed just as dull.)

As for Madonna, well, the first couple of paragraphs of the TP review on this site pose a good argument. And in the end, that's what a review is: an essay that states a particular point of view, and presents arguments to back it up. I can't imagine Natasha Stovall (I assume she's the author of those first two paragraphs, since she's listed first in the credit) making the same statement about Celine D., Gloria E., or Cher BFD.

I don't remember Benatar being in the first TP Guide, but i could be wrong. My copy of TPRG #1 disintegrated years ago.

I guess my thoughts are that in the long run, no, Petty & Dire Straits aren't "alternative." But at the time they first came out in the late 70s, their output had enough intelligence and integrity to set it apart from the mainstream of the time and had enough in common with the emerging punk & new wave that many publications of the time, TP included, lumped them in with the movement. And if they weren't alternative, they may have helped open the door for it just a little bit in their own ways.

On the other hand, the 90s mainstreamers I mentioned (the Crows, & Hootie, as well as Blues Traveler and Spin Doctors, also covered by TP) performed almost exactly the opposite function. For a little while in the early days of the 90s alternative radio format it was possible to turn on the radio and hear Dramarama and the Posies and Sonic Youth on powerful commercial stations. However, once bands like those mentioned above started worming their way into the alternative format it was a sign that the door was closing on the brief era of actual alternative on the radio and the same old stuff was coming back, just dubiously labeled "alternative" by the record companies and radio programmers.

Though in their defense, I doubt any of the people mentioned ever actually considered themselves to be alt rockers, and hell, at least they weren't Whitesnake. And I didn't list Dave Matthews with the 90s mainstreamers in alternative clothing because even though I don't particularly like his music, I do think he's been adventurous and expanded his music to enough of an extent that I think he merits inclusion here. Not to my taste, but he does take his fair share of risks and doesn't really seem to care if it turns off people who got into him because of "What Would You Say." And that's fairly cool.

> And I didn't list Dave
> Matthews with the 90s mainstreamers in alternative clothing
> because even though I don't particularly like his music, I do
> think he's been adventurous and expanded his music to enough of
> an extent that I think he merits inclusion here. Not to my
> taste, but he does take his fair share of risks and doesn't
> really seem to care if it turns off people who got into him
> because of "What Would You Say." And that's fairly cool.


anybody who takes a dump in the chicago river is cool by me...

Actually, it was more on the boatload of tourists than the river.

I just wonder what the proper reaction is to something like that? Are you horrified at being deluged by sewage, or are you honored and a little bit starstruck at having a truly memorable celebrity encounter?

i'd have killed him

then i would feel honored

A logical decision.

Speaking of celebrity encounters, I once saw James Iha in the Art Institute of Chicago. He was just kind of hanging around "American Gothic," and he looked pensive and sad.



Post Edited (01-04-06 22:56)

i was reviewing restaurants (incognito natch!) and on/in the upper west side i was sat next to dr ruth who was smaller than my misplaced salad fork; i asked her how her chicken was and she gave me a sly and naughty look and said:

wouldn't you like to know?

goodness!

i also shook hands with M Ali and I said: I am in your debt. And he looked at me like i said death, and just stared back, pensive and sad.

FWITW, the reasons for including those two in the first book were, from a 1984 perspective, reasonably sound. Dire Straits were a genuine (albeit mild-mannered) pub band when they started, with the same sort of bona fides as Kilburn and the High Roads, the Kursaal Flyers, Ducks Deluxe, etc. The entry in the first book said that, listed their 1978 debut, noted their global pap status, and dropped them right then and there. It was a one-graf item that hardly bears republication at this late date. Tom Petty, as you old-timers might recall, was presented as a new wave artist when he began, and "American Girl" is certainly on a par with the other power pop of the era. The enthusiastic entry i did for the first book covers five albums. I honestly can't recall why it didn't get updated for the second edition other than how far he had travelled for the thin (and dubious) connection to new wave to mean anything as his career pushed on.

I worked for a sound company in Chicago that help build the smashin' pumps studio/rehearsal space and the area had to be designed to include indoor parking for the new mercedes and jags the group members bought because they were worried about leaving them on the street and no one wanted them to be sad and pensive.

I worked in a liqour store during college and barry williams (Greg Brady) came in looking for magazines late one night.
Me: "Sir the only magazines liquor stores sell are porno"
Greg Brady: "Got any?"
I was sad and pensive the rest of the night.

I met Bo Diddley backstage and shook his hand.
Me: (enthusiastically) "Bo Didley's a gunslinger!"
Mr Diddley: "And you're an asshole."
Reverted to sad and pensiveness.

A friend of mine gushed to Bob Mould backstage after a Sugar concert about how the Huskers paved the way for all the "alternative" bands at the time like Alice in Chains, Soungarden, Pearly jammas, their ilk.....
My friend: "blah blah alternative bands blah blah paved the way blah blah ...."
Bobo: "Alternative to what?"

Okay, here are a couple of names that have never been covered in the TP Guide, but should they be?

Van Morrison
Warren Zevon

Without getting weighty/serious, here's what it says about TP criteria:

Quote

So if you want information about, and critical analysis of, new wave, punk, hip-hop, avant-garde, indie, underground, power pop, imported, ska, hardcore, industrial and other realms beyond the usual and safe, this is as good place as any to hang out.

I think there's an argument to be made for Zevon, but probably not for Van Morrison. Or Van Halen.

or Van Cliburn

But you could make an argurment for Van Gough

Maybe. Van Morrison gets in because of his influence on Graham Parker. And when Zevon came out, he was seen as a breath of fresh air. So I guess that in retrospect he could be though of as sort of an alt rocker, albeit a slicked-up, West Coast one.

From the beginning, the Guide included not only alt rockers but also those who have had an influence on them. Thus, an argument could be made for Van Morrison on the basis of his influence on Graham Parker, Counting Crows, and perhaps others. Similarly, arguments could be made for the inclusion of figures such as Laura Nyro and even Leonard Cohen. And MANY figures from the Classic Rock field had a substantial influence on alternative artists.

Discussion re-opened after 19 years! Is this a record for resurrecting an old thread?

The Beatles could certainly qualify. Where would Big Star, Robyn Hitchcock or XTC be without their influence (and the other '60s bands they influenced)?