Fav Punk Album / PUNK: Attitude (IFC) knee cool jerk response

This is old and in the way but not of a don't let him dangling conversation...

1. Just read Ira's mini-history on CBGB in August SPIN -- about armagideon time, I know. The article conjured up punk rock's baptism of trash and thrash fire -- smelled like free spirit.

As a long time cool jerker off the fantastic Trouser Press, my question is to Ira: In the Spin Contributor's section you list THE CLASH as your favorite punk album.

I assume you mean the UK version -- but since I've made a lifelong left-edge democrat's ass of myself, I don't want to assume anything -- so do you? Color me curious Brigade Rossi.

That is my fav Clash album by the way -- the UK version. But I think for my no reason to play fair favorite punk album, have to go with Nevermind The Bollocks, Here's The Sex Pistols.

Anyone & everyone feel free to Tory Chime in with your choice(s).

2. Speaking of The Clash, the IFC film made by Don Letts, PUNK: Attitude, which I know debuted in July, but was reshown for the umpteenth time just yesterday morning, was a marvelous gasser and is not to be missed. I especially dug talking head Jim Jarmusch's recollections and observations.

If the trouser press agent provocateurs are not already too talked out on it, feel free to get back Jack on it.

There is a bit of bullshit in the film, as to be expected, as everybody puts out shit, as Joe Strummer eloquently once said. Not surprisingly to me, Mr. Gung Ho Henry Rollins himself provides more than his fair share of it.

Henry says P.I.L. is infinitely more fascinating than the Pistols. Oh yeah. Can't you see how much of an influence P.I.L. was on Black Flag? As far as the Flag are concerned, it's like Johnny never happened.

In addition, HR says when "mom's heard of grunge -- Gotta go." Well, guess what, Henry? My 75 year-old-mom's heard of punk, so I guess that's gotta go, too.

Anyway, I'm not here to bury Henry or punk. I love "TV Party Tonight!" as much as the next rude boy. I come mainly to remind people of some major oversights in the film.

The film does a fine job documenting punk down through the years. To his credit talking head Thurston Moore leaves a shroud of mystery hanging in the air, alluding to and alerting viewers of a secret history of the 80's, hinting at a sequel that should but perhaps will never be made. While still waiting, slackers are invited to get their kicks off the "ROUTE 666: Road To Nirvana," a hip book by Gina Arnold.

Ever heard of the Replacements? Or how about, The Placemats? And then of course one could go on and on to mention maybe, The Cramps, REM, Husker Du, The Minutemen, even, I don't know, U2. Ever heard of them? Oh no, we need more time to let Henry heap praise and show concert footage of ever so Limp Biscuit instead.

But there are more egregious errors than cannot be forgiven in my far from Humboldt opinion. Ever fucking fallen in love with The Jam and Elvis Costello and the Attractions? Alas, they are not even mentioned.

Now I know The Clash -- and therefore Don Letts too? -- always scoffed at the Jam, but that was largely because they saw in them their biggest competition. In many ways, The Jam fired up and drove The Clash.

In America, as I saw and rocked it, The Jam and Elvis Costello were the other two parts of the English punk unholy triumvirate, along with of course The Clash. Their were my generation's Beatles, Stones and Dylan.

Oh but perhaps Elvis Costello and The Jam weren't strictly punk enough for you elite purists? Well, they were brilliantly provocative and rebel enough for our gang, so up yours.

Final spleen marone offering: a moment of silence for the most sinfully overlooked American band in the film, the biggest US punk band of the early 80's...

X.

'Nuff said.

Well, gotta get some sleep before going out tonight tonight to see one of my favorite new punk bands: The White Stripes. Like they count.

Gotta keep 'em flying... beyond and back at ya.



This Is Radio Clash City Rocker

This thread (?) is as good a place as any to bring up my once every 6 months begging of Ira to update the Heartbreakers entry to include the "Lost 77 Mixes" version of L.A.M.F. Finest punk album of all time in this version and nary a mention of it in TP in this definitive edition? You heard me. Finest Punk Album Ev-ah. Clash? Pistols? Ramones? Get to the back of the line the whole lot of you! But just to be somewhat on topic (?), the UK version of The Clash is definitely superior, but the US version has it's own charm too.

When Sony re-mastered and re-issued the Clash catalog in 2000, they issued the U.S. and UK versions of the band's first album separately. I guess it was just too much to hope for, that Sony would issue a "unified" version by adding the four songs from the UK version to the U.S. version.

Yeah, I know, Sony would've made less money that way. But other labels have shown it can be done.

*Are You Experienced?* originally was issued with different tracks on either side of the Atlantic. When MCA got its hands on the Hendrix catalogue in the early '90s, they took the unified approach. Hard to say for sure, but I'd speculate that the extra effort made the reissue more successful than it otherwise would've been. Pity that Sony didn't consider MCA's example when dealing with the Clash.

Oh, and my vote for favorite punk album? The Clash's first. And I'll cast my vote to the U.S. version. (I beg to differ with Mats and 'Mouth on that one.)

The four songs cut from the UK version are great, no doubt about it, but the ones added for the American release bring a lot more depth to the album as a whole. "Complete Control" and "White Man in Hammersmith Palais" are two of the greatest songs the Clash ever did, and "Clash City Rockers," "I Fought the Law" and "Jail Guitar Doors" also are pretty high up the ladder from the missing four songs, IMO.

If you're looking for something that "defines" or "represents" class-of-'77 punk, then yeah, the UK Clash debut fits that bill more straightforwardly.

And big agreement with 'Mouth: The Jam doesn't get nearly enough credit as being a stellar part of that class.

I saw Oasis last night, and the pre-show music over the PA was a broad selection of all things great and British. When "The Eton Rifles" came on, between The Creation and Bowie, I yelled out loud with excitement. My friends would've thought I was a bit daft, if they didn't know me already.

Rollins has some good points. By his own admission he's a scattered speaker but his basic points, I see what he means. The Pistols NMTB has it's place but obviously there's more musical depth to the PIL oeuvre.

The CLASH (US) was the available one we could buy; the one we could save our allowance for. It holds a place. I took all the Clash tracks as chronologically released (including my own vinyl rips of tracks still not on CD) and made my own box set, so that's the only thing I listen to now.

Most overlooked? Meat Puppets. I'm sure the SST collective doesn't exist in Don Lett's eyes. Oh well.

I remember thinknig the Jam and Costello were right up there with the Clash for a couple years. I don't know what the hell I was thinking.

Explain the Heartbreakers/LAMF thang. What am I missing?

Favorite punk album (this week anyway): Bad Religion NO CONTROL

Oh man, asking me to talk about "L.A.M.F. - The Lost '77 Mixes" is like asking Tom Cruise to talk about Psychiatry - you might be curious at first but soon you'll be begging me to shut up. I find that album to be simply the purest distillation of the Rock & Roll spirit I have ever heard. It does for me what I think the Ramones debut does for others - except in comparison, I find the Ramones too conceptual, where the Heartbreakers just seem more organic (this is relatively speaking, I also love the Ramones debut). I didn't feel this way until the release of this "Lost 77" version however. These mixes have a mind blowing power and crispness. No other record I can think of balances the elements of great Rock & Roll as well - sex, fun, humor, and the ever elusive one "danger". On a purely visceral level I find it the most exciting album of all time, the solos leap out at you but never overstay their welcome. In the manner it's conceived it's ingenious - lyrically structuring every song about either romantic love ("I Love You"), sex ("Baby Talk"), the love of sex ("Pirate Love"), and the love of a life that they know is killing them ("Born to Lose", "Chinese Rocks", yeah they didn't write it but they own it).....I'm gonna go play it now I think.



Post Edited (09-21-05 17:39)

I respect you for your passion and you make a good case. I have tried throughout the years to revisit the album and the group. All I hear is....heroin.

It's a strange thing - there is only one overt drug song on that album, "Chinese Rocks", although I guess you could stretch it and say the double entendre of "One Track Mind" leans heavily in that direction. Still, that's just 2 out of 14 tunes at most in the editions that have existed after the original 1977 release. But I do know what you mean. It does sort of ooze that heroin/wasted vibe, even though it's not in the songs themselves for the most part.

The subject of drug romanticism is probably best left alone here. I can't reconcile the fact that I like "nod music" like VU's third album with the fact that I'm neither moved nor impressed by The Heartbreakers. (I do like the chorus of "Born To Lose"; very catchy). Maybe because I can't help but wonder what obviously talented artists like Johnny Thunders would/could have done had they not been junkies. I'll leave the drug solution to the Bush administration; it seems to have clear solutions for most things.

Now, I give my props to So Alone. That album is tremendous.

Paganizer, I know exactly what you were thinking ... because you were right, when you were thinking that The Jam and Elvis C. were right up there with The Clash. Sure, both those bands went far from where they started, but so did The Clash.

The Jam's best work, IMO, still stands up proudly alongside The Clash's. So does Costello's. Both those artists went pretty far from where they started, but so did The Clash.

The Jam, EC and The Clash progressed and developed so amazingly that they arguably transcended whatever genre or movement they came from. I don't think of these acts - even The Clash - as "punk" bands any more. For punk, I would pick an act/album that was such an evolutionary dead-end that they remain frozen for all time in the surrounding, attitudes and trappings that fed their sound. I would pick something by X-Ray Spex for the best true unadulterated "punk" album.

Well, you can't fit in everything/everyone, but "Punk Attitude" is still essential, and long overdue. And when Rollins said PiL was way better musically then the Pistols I said Yeah! The Pistols were more influential because many could copy their sound. But listen to "Metal Box"/"Second Edition" - how the hell did they do it? PiL were too singular to be influential.

I thought I detected a distinct PiL (circa "Metal Box") influence on the first Tortoise album.

I finally got around to watching the documentary and enjoyed it, although I could've gone my entire life without seeing the brief clip of the MC5 doing a little dance that resembled something you'd expect from the New Kids on the Block. That was just horrifying.

One thing I've been wondering, though - why is Alice Cooper only rarely mentioned as a forerunner of punk? Some sources give him props - Clinton Heylin's From the Velvets to the Voidoids, for example. But most of the time he's ignored. Just wondering - seems like he should maybe get more credit than he ever seems to. (Right now I'm trying to remember if he's mentioned at all in the Letts film. I don't recall.)

I remember Jello Biafra saying in the film that Alice Cooper was a huge influence on him, and that he wanted to write songs that were like Cooper's, but applied to real-life people like businessmen.

I really liked the IFC film. It was a lot more open-minded than a lot of previous punk history films out there, and the interviews were great. I liked how they actually got people who were opinionated. (For instance, I thought that the Public Image Ltd. vs. Sex Pistols comment was right on.)

Some of it was disappointing. The end felt rushed, and I was hoping to see groups like Devo and the Minutemen mentioned, among others. But none of it made me cringe, except maybe for the Agnostic Front interview. (Though it wasn't that bad, I guess.)

I saw that the film was released on DVD with something like 3 hours of extra material, so maybe there's even more good stuff in there.



Post Edited (09-24-05 01:42)

On the other hand - when they first hit London, The Birthday Party were at pains to explain that they were NOT influenced by Alice Cooper.
Mind you there was this very early Boys Next Door bootleg live tape doing the rounds for a while (Pre Door Door, Pre anything on vinyl for that matter) and that tape happened to contain a cover of "I'm 18".

NP - "L.A.M.F. - The Lost '77 Mixes"
I don't hear influence, I hear influences (New York Dolls).
Sounds like the garage band down the street to me. I don't hear prowess or
songwriting. Did you have to be there? Was it an energy thing?

I think it was and still is Los Ramones first record. I'm pretty sure that's punk rock.



Post Edited (09-26-05 22:50)

I don't think you had to be there for the Heartbreakers, since, well, I wasn't there I'm in my late 30's so it pre-dates me. I hear some influence - clearly the Replacements early records steal from them, New Bomb Turks, Libertines at times, but I wouldn't say it's a massively influential record, no...... I don't know if I hear "prowess" exactly, but I hear a super-tight band. I also hear the influences (Eddie Cochran !). The songwriting isn't sophisticated but has it's off-hand charms (especially "It's Not Enough"). The record to me is more than the sum of it's parts...... I'm still ranking it in front of Ramones simply because I find that too contrived/conceptual by comparison. I'm also placing it above the Dolls because the Dolls campy aesthetic has aged poorly to me. Obviously, I love both the Dolls debut and the Ramones 1st, I'm just speaking in relative terms, and recognize those records hold much more historical weight. Something about "L.A.M.F" just speaks to me more directly, viscerally. It's a top 10 ever album for me, maybe even top 5......basically it has the same appeal like that girl in 11th grade who your friends thought was ok looking but you thought she was unbelievably sexy because of the way she sucked on a cigarette. Oh come on, you know the girl I mean.



Post Edited (09-26-05 23:26)

I missed the film, but ordered it online this week. I hear all the talk about The Jam, Clash, EC etc... Was Joy Divison mentioned in the film? I think Joy Divison stands in that crowd very well. The might even be the first post-punk band in the punk age, dare I say.

that movie was medicine a tonic for the troops. Instead of going to church and passing out business cards this week, get drunk. shut up and watch the movie.



Post Edited (10-05-05 21:46)

'screw it, let it ride Dawson, this is the family fued isn't it?
Give me the Dictators first album or give me death.'



Post Edited (10-05-05 21:51)

I enjoyed the movie.. it had the Rollins rule... Rollins has to be in any documentary and I still take what he says with a grain of salt. But they did cover the 80s underground a bit more than other treatments...

favorite punk album? first Clash album would be up there, so would Discharge's "Hear Nothing See Nothing Say Nothing."

I finally got around to watching the movie too and thought it was generally well done, if a little too big for its own britches. Jumped around way too much and left out some key folks. Zappa and Beefheart barely got a mention, and the Clevo scene was acknowledged only insofar as noting that the Dead Boys were playing CBGB's with the rest of the NY bands.

I guess if you weren't viewing it as a HISTORY of punk attitude - which is what it seems to style itself to be - then it wouldn't seem so scattered. But to jump from the late 70s all the way up to Fugazi in the space of about a minute and then back to early 80s LA was a little whiplash-inducing. And I still can't figure out why goddamn Agnostic Front warranted so much screen time.

But there were some fantastic interviews in the film and I think Letts did a pretty good job of weeding out the incomprehensible ones. It looks like the DVD extras may fill in some of the holes (e.g., an expansion of the LA scene), but I'm working my way through those before taking it back to the video store.

The DVD comes packaged with a copy of SNIFFIN' GLUE, which is by far the coolest DVD extra ever.

Back in the day, Bleecker Bob used to Xerox copies of Sniffin' Glue (which was Xeroxed to begin with) and sell them in his store. I always thought that was funny.

HAY DOSE ANAY KNOW WHAT CITY MARKY LIVE IN AND WHAT IS HIS HOUSE ADDRESS E-MAIL IT TO ME @ MYTHREESONS14137@AOL.COM



FUCK GREEN DAY THOSE POSERS
RAMONES FOREVER