Re: Pavement

Do people think all of Pavement's albums were as good as each other? Was Terror Twilight a disapointment? I have a blog inspired by their classic track about when bands "Cut Their Hair" - latest is on the band themselves...

http://www.cutyourhair.org/?p=131

I suppose Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain was less crappy than the rest of their painful oeuvre.

Watery, Domestic EP is my personal favorite. 4 lean slabs of Indie-rock nirvana, with detuned guitars, thrashing drums, and crisp production which leap out of the speakers. Slanted is an absolute classic. I really enjoy the grotty noisy early stuff collected on Westing, but realize this is not to everyones liking. The first side of Crooked Rain is brilliant (actually I can listen to the guitar intro and first verse of Silent Kid 20 times in a row and keep rewinding, it is so good), but the album loses me a bit in the second half. Wowee Zowee is a weird loopy record but definitely hit or miss, and more misses than hits. Brighten The Corners was a big disappointment in that it seemed Pavement forgot how to rock. The slow ones (Type Slowly, etc) sounded God-awful at the time, but the record as a whole has aged OK in my opinion and has a few great moments. Terror Twilight is a disappointment. All semblance of rock is gone, and we had to settle for cute little ditties like Carrot Rope -- not necessarily a bad thing, but I think this record is only for completists.

Anyway, that's my take on their catalog. Buy Watery, Slanted, Crooked Rain, and you'll have their best records.

MT, can you offer an explanation why you hate them so much? Just curious.... I really like it hear why people really despise bands or records.



Post Edited (10-14-09 18:34)

Let me see if I can sum it up without going on and on (and on).

Before I go any further, I should note that the below rant is based on the music from Slanted & Enchanted, Westing (By Musket and Sextant) and Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain. I never went any further than that, though I did give them a try with those.

Pavement's philosophy always seemed to me to be based on two things: carelessness and irony. The band made a virtue of sloppy, half-assed craftspersonship when it always seemed clear to me that they knew how to play. That's not to say that they should be obligated to create super-sophisticated prog rock epics just because they know more than two chords. But Malkmus and crew put a lot of time, though and effort into making music that sounded like it was thrown together with the utmost carelessness, even on the part of the band. I admire an artist who creates without regard to what the audience thinks - that's fine, even necessary. But creating art that sounds like the creator couldn't give a shit about it? That's unfathomable to me.

Which leads to the irony part of the equation. Everything I heard by Pavement seemed calculated not to mean anything to anyone. It's as if the band was saying, "All this earnestness and emotional honesty in music - what crap. Why bother? We don't give a fuck, so why should anybody else?" And lo and behold, that attitude, more than any of the actual tunes, made such a huge impact on the underground rock scene that it created a huge wave of soulless "indie rock" bands for whom irony trumps anything even remotely resembling a real emotion. Most of what passes for music on Pitchfork can be traced, at least spiritually, back to Pavement.

I realize it was all a put-on, that the band could really play (from the beginning, I've always suspected) and that the irony was a reaction to the insincerity inherent in the hairshirt-wearing, breast-beating excesses of a lot of rock in the late 80s and early 90s. But becoming the ultimate smug, smirky, uber-ironic assholes was, in my view, not the way to combat this particular plague. I know it was supposed to be funny. I get that conceptually. But I never laughed.

Basically, Pavement (quite deliberately) shit all over many of the qualities that make me love music (sincerity, craft, heart, a desire to communicate) and still became one of the most influential rock bands of the past two decades. For a lot of folks, that's a great thing. For me, that's damn near ruinous.

And I don't begrudge anyone their love of Pavement, by the way. I don't think any less of anyone who thinks they were/are a great band. A lot of folks I respect greatly (including everyone on this board - I especially prize your commentary, nosepail, which often makes me reflect on my own musicial beliefs). But for me, Pavement is one of the worst things to ever hit rock & roll.

But this is just me. Opinions are like assholes, etc. Pavement means a great deal to an awful lot of people, so take my very personal reaction to this band with a grain of salt.

"But for me, Pavement is one of the worst things to ever hit rock & roll."

I say that about Weezer, and for many of the same reasons -- a lack of respect for its audience or its material. However, Weezer sometimes has some great pop hooks and some decent playing. Pavement is smarter, and can be brilliant at times -- pieces of Slanted make me very happy -- but rarely stomps enough. I've never dipped far enough into their catalog to see whether or not my initial reactions play out over the rest of their stuff.

But I've been listening to Black Sea for three days straight, so you can tell where my loyalties lie. Nothing like the awesomeness of Side Two, which interrupts its brilliantly arranged and staggeringly intelligent pop songs for a great bar stomper -- "Sgt. Rock" -- before the controlled chaos of "Travels..."



Post Edited (10-15-09 15:31)

I agree completely about Weezer.

I'm not a huge Pavement fan, but thanks to an old girlfriend, I ended up seeing them several times and developing an appreciation for their stuff.

I don't think it was all an act.

It wasn't all wink-wink, nudge-nudge. Tunes like "Here" and "Our Singer" off Slanted & Enchanted, as well as "Silence Kit" (which sounds a lot like...um, Weezer) and "Range Life" from Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain – these seem fairly straightforward.

Early on, they sounded somewhat like The Fall, but:
1) not nearly as much as Mark E. Smith claims, and;
2) I've never understood what was wrong with that.

Toland nails my problems with Malkmus & Pavement pretty well, although I think I liked them quite a bit more than he does - I do think they were an incredibly talented band that could never quite hide that talent under a bushel no matter how much they acted like they wanted to. But I always had a problem with the whole attitude that the band seemed to be laughing at a punchline to a joke only they knew but that somehow I was the butt of. But I admit that my read on them may be wildly off base.

In their own way, I think Pavement were the alternative rock version of Whitney Houston - there was nothing there that needed to be emulated to the extent that it was. Just as Houston's "I must hit nine octaves in every syllable in order to show off my vocal abilities, no matter if the song benefits from it" style has totally screwed up the last 20 years of mainstream pop, I think Pavement's "we can't be bothered to take this seriously and there's something wrong with you if you do" attitude did the same for indie-rock.

By calling out Smashing Pumpkins in "Range Life," Malkmus drew a line between Pavement's slacker ethos and Billy Corgan's oh-so-serious sincerity and ambition, and Malkmus made it clear what side of the line all the really cool kids were on. Hell, even that most overly sincere band of all time, U2, succumbed to the irony bug by the Popmart tour and were nudging and winking at the whole idea of being a serious band.

I think one of the reasons OK Computer ended up being hailed as much as it was is the fact that it restored to alternative rock the sense that a band could be serious and ambitious and still maintain credibility. Whatever one's opinion of Radiohead might be, they've never felt the need to apologize for who they are, which is something bands like Pavement spent a large part of the 90s forcing more serious minded bands to do.

Which is not an entirely bad thing, but after a while it gets to the point of an audience saying "if you don't really give a damn, why should we?" Puncturing balloons is all well and good, but by removing sincerity from the musical vocabulary of the coolest kids, Pavement and their ilk left it to be claimed by Korn and the other nu-metal louts, and that didn't do anyone any good at all.

That said, I do think "Box Elder," "Summer Babe," "Forklift" and "Trigger Cut" are some of the most kick-ass tracks of the early 90s.

You just articulated everything I wanted to say far better than I did. From now on I'm hiring you to ghostwrite everything I publish.

Billy Corgan may be an arrogant buffoon, but I'll take his overblown-but-sincere bullshit over Pavement's "we're cooler than you because we can't be bothered to give a crap" brilliance any day. (Or, better yet, I'll not take either one. Except Siamese Dream. That I still like.)

I guess I would put Pavement into the same category as Pearl Jam - a good band but a bad influence.



Post Edited (10-15-09 16:14)

Quote

Billy Corgan may be an arrogant buffoon, but I'll take his overblown-but-sincere bullshit over Pavement's "we're cooler than you because we can't be bothered to give a crap" brilliance any day. (Or, better yet, I'll not take either one. Except Siamese Dream. That I still like.)

...

I find Smashing Pumpkins to be utterly repugnant on nearly every count.

There is a crate of old CDs in the garage that has a used copy of Gish in it that I picked up for next to nothing. The album still grates on me, but I like the faux badass-hedonist shtick (an updated Steppenwolf?) more that the later, Uncle-Fester era. Blech! Double Blech!

Gag me with a moon-June-spoon!

I'm going to roll out the heavy artillery and state unequivocally that I'd rather listen to Marilyn Manson.

:::shudder:::

And I never felt like Pavement thought they were cooler than me. The main difference was that they were making the music and I was merely buying it.

A good band, Pavement. Not great. Just good. They're obviously quite like chum in a shark tank as far as bulletin boards are concerned.

Love The Wedding Present's cover of "Box Elder." Especially how they bowdlerized the naughty lyrics.

Siamese Dream is, to me, the alt.rock version of Boston's first album, for which I have a soft spot. I've never much cared for any of their other work. And I learned early on to avoid reading interviews with Corgan, as I'd have the same reaction as Brad if I did.

I'd take Marilyn Manson over Pavement, too, for the record, and I've never heard a Manson song I liked.

I stand corrected. Conduit For Sale and New Face in Hell are almost identical songs. Thank Goodness, I asked for two examples

Not much to add to all the above insightful commentary except to note that it's really only the Spiral Stairs songs that ape the Fall, right? (There's another band name for you, Delvin: Ape The Fall) I'm trying to think of a Malkmus song that sounds like the Fall and I'm drawing a blank.

I still love S&E, think Crooked Rain is pretty good, and think Wowee Zowee is a hoot in an all-over-the-place, Double Nickels kinda way. The last two albums were weak and essentially interchangeable to me, tho I feel like I've read some folks say elsewhere that one of the two is really great and the other is crap. Can never remember which is which, however.

I've got all the Malkmus solo recs and found them all to be good, but not great. I really wanted to like Spiral Stairs' "Preston School of Industry" stuff, but just couldn't really get into it. As with Colin Moulding's latter-day contributions to XTC, it seems like Scott really knows one song now (and it's not a Fall song anymore) and just reworks it a number of ways.

Wow, really incredible analysis on this thread. It all sounds so plausible and yet I dont get the criticisms. All the hate seems to be based on intangibles instead of anything they're doing wrong with the guitar, basses, and drums (and mics). It smacks of a sports announcer trying to derive some deep conclusion from the so-called "body language" of the athlete. Is it the lyrics about nothing that are the problem? Is there something just unbearably smarmy about Malkmus that drives a lot of people away? The complaints of the musicality I dont understand. They put out 2 lo-fi records and moved on, and those records were meant to be noisy and exciting, and succeeded! Malkmus is a talented guitarist and got better and better as the band evolved.

Were Pavement somehow the embodiment of an insincere, ironic-laden slacker ethos? I dont know, but that's certainly not how my brain consumed the records. Really, I dont know anyone who dislikes cynicism and irony more than me. I even despise The Simpsons! Especially since they gave rise to such garbage as The Family Guy. (Give me Cheers, Taxi, and Andy Griffith anyday!) But Pavement records seemed as earnest or sincere (or whatever you want to call it) to me as The Replacements, Huskers, Sonic Youth, Archers of Loaf, or any other band I loved in my formative years. Drop the needle on Slanted and I hear Summer Babe which sounds as fresh and mysterious to me now as it ever did. Drop it on Watery, Domestic, and I am blown away by 15 minutes of tight, minimalist heavy rock. Drop it on Crooked Rain, and I hear a band at the peak of their powers somehow capturing a zeitgeist.

The dominance of this ironic, insincere worldview is not Pavement's doing. If they were mired it in it worse than other bands of the time, didnt they grapple with it earnestly, and produce some worthy art in the process? Isnt that what it's all about? All the bands I loved of that time were singing about the conundrum of emerging from the underground and having nowhere else to go, nothing meaninful to sing about, writing songs about songs, etc. I can relate to these fellows and their struggles with meaning a lot more than I can relate to the current twenty-something who is basically a different species of human. They are raised in a media and technological environment so infinite and overwhelming, I cannot identify where their personalities end and their electronic devices begin. Those quaint slackers from the early 90's seem like good folk by comparison.

See y'all at next years Pavement reunion!



Post Edited (10-15-09 21:27)

bleedin fuckin bloody nose right
spoken like a true floridian.
like malkmus surfs even.



Post Edited (10-15-09 22:00)

To me, S&E is by far their best - one of that awful decades best albums - though the best moments on Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain equal it (there's a couple tracks there that are so self referential they lessen it for me).

Never got the love for Wowee Zowee except for a couple tracks - too disjointed for me. The best songs on Brighten the Corners (Embassy Row, Date With Ikea) suggest they could have had a whole different, mainstream-ish career. Terror Twilight to me is their weakest, it's a so-so record, I don't hate it - but it's not inspired.

I have to say I listen to Pavement a lot less than I used to - I don't think their slacker schtick has aged too well..........or maybe I haven't. For as good as they were at what they did, I wish their songs drew a little more blood, more often.

> For as good as they were at what they did, I wish their songs drew a little more blood,
> more often.

That about sums up Pavement's minimal appeal for me, too. Nicely done, Mats.

for me, they kept getting worse

can't remember specifics

Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain was one of the great albums of the 1990s. Changed a whole lot of shit for me. S&E seemed gimmicky and purposefully coarse and weird. Much of what followed did not hold up. . . A great live band on the right night, based on my experiences. Spiral (Scott) is the nicest guy worth talking to. Besides Nastanovich, who--let's face it--is nice to *everybody*. Perhaps because his role is dubious.



Post Edited (10-14-09 21:54)

I think Malkmus's second solo record, Pig Lib, is GREAT and better than the last 3 Pavement records. Sounds like I might be alone on that, however.... in caring, that is.



Post Edited (10-14-09 22:01)

Perhaps this will come off as (intentionally) naive, but I never ascribed any motivation to the Pavement guys. I saw 'em play in front of a couple of dozen, a couple of hundred and a couple of thousand, and they seemed like the same mismatched crew every time.

I've never met anyone who likes everything they did.

They were a singles band that released very few singles.

Slanted and Enchanted is my favorite proper release (including EPs), but "Range Life" is my favorite song.

I won't slag any of their later efforts, because they're obviously a much better band by Wowee Zowee, and it's tough to begrudge anyone becoming more able at his/her vocation.

It was easier just to listen to The Fall themselves. And there are so few things in the world you can say that about.

I love them both but he connection between The Fall and Pavement is WILDLY exaggerated. Can you draw a line between two Pavement songs and two Fall songs? I cant.

nosepail wrote:

> I love them both but he connection between The Fall and
> Pavement is WILDLY exaggerated. Can you draw a line between
> two Pavement songs and two Fall songs? I cant.

Go find "Conduit for Sale" (19920 on Youtube and see the first song under "Related Videos", "New Face in Hell" (1980).

But to be fair, I only half heard the first couple of Pavement records and never really gave them a fair shake.

"Hit The Plane Down" is/was Pavement's open admission that they were slack-jawed, dyed-in-the-wool Fall fans. At least it sounds like it. Everybody I was friends with back then knew it immediately, even before we were exposed to that song. "Conduit For Sale" was already available for our ears.

Not that there's anything wrong with that-ahh!

What I am wondering is did Mark E. ever take them to task for the larceny? I'm sure that he did in the press. I mean did it ever surface in the music?



Post Edited (10-15-09 17:53)

Apparently dassvenster really knows how to provoke discussion.

His blog has elicited some strong reactions.

My opinion on Pavement's live show lies buried back in the thread-bins. As far the studio LPs went, I missed the last one and have never given much more than a passing grunt over Malkmus and his Jicks. I do like Wowee Zowee the best of the bunch that I do know (best songs, I think). It's in the collection along with the debut and Brighten The Corners. And the Watery, Domestic EP.

On a just-this-instant-rendered-germane note, I saw this the other day while strolling around that website that had the "Pink Panther Punk" thing listed:



Probably not actually related? Coincidence? I dunno.



Post Edited (10-15-09 17:52)

I liked the Pumpkins all right, although the one time I saw them live I wanted to bean Corgan with cement beachball.

Well, I think we've fairly exhausted this topic, but I'd like to add a short Mark E. Smith interview from 2006 into the mix.

I guess I missed this at the time, but he was threatening to sue Franz Ferdinand!?! It's so obvious now: The Fall > Pavement > Franz Ferdinand

I think Malkmus always copped to the Fall influence didn't he? He's a huge Fall fan, and I've read some interviews where he discusses the classic Fall discog. That said I've never felt Pave were Fall copyists. There are some early tracks that are clearly influenced by the Fall but you've really got to be listening for it. I'm a Fall fan too, but Pavement were a true original.

Wowee Zowee is my favorite. Slanted is my least favorite. I'd rather listen to Westing or Terror Twilight than Slanted. But they're all good.

I also concur with whoever brought up Watery Domestic. One of the all time great EP's.

I don't think they didn't give a shit as much as they found the "I am a golden god" stance of some of their peers to be full of well, shit.

man I hope no one takes offense to this, but many of you sound very old and cranky. So you either like Pavement or not, or maybe you're indifferent, but all this talk about them being a bad influence on a generation's worth of music is total grandpa talk. Seriously? A bad influence?
Rock is irreverent, rock is loose, rock is unkempt. It can also be the opposite, that's why we all form allegiances in life based on our tastes. But to sit back 15-20 years later and claim what is being claimed on this board by some of you is lame.
Feel young again, try to remember what it feels like to not care. Take a listen to Summer Babe or No Life Singed Her and let it all hang out.
I'm 40. I'm married. I have a child. I'm a professional now. But no way will I ever let that spark die. I can still feel the rush when I try.

Oh, and the difference between Pavement and Weezer is simple:
Pavement wanted to MAKE records, Weezer wanted to SELL 'em. And when your chief goal as a young band is to make cool records and tour, then it's totally expected that a little sloppiness and attitude will creep in. And God forbid ATTITUDE in rock and roll.

Question- if they were a bad influence, then who was a good one? Actually scratch that, I'm still young enough at heart to not care.

I really meant no ill will in this post to anyone, but this is Trouser Press, not mainstream press. Don't we celebrate oddity and honesty here?

Old and cranky? Moi? Certainly. But then again, I wasn't hating on Pavement. Superchunk did blow them off the stage. That's just the facts.

I comment mainly because I was thinking about this thread the other day while driving home from work ... and the words "Stephen Malkmus - Attorney At Law" kept running through my head. No joke.

And Weezer will always have that one shining moment when the dogs inexplicably stampede through the set for the video for that sweater song. I love that tune.