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Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"

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mats84
Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 22, 2008 05:13AM
Do you love any band more than their obvious primary influence who they are normally considered inferior to :

Dig Squeeze or Oasis more than the Beatles for example?

Dream Syndicate more then the Velvets?

The Velvets are actually the band that got me thinking of this, since I'd call them the primary influence on the Modern Lovers and Only Ones - bands I have a greater affinity for than the Velvets themselves, although I dig them too of course.

Might be even more interesting if you loved the influenced band and actually dislike the influencer entirely.

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breno
Re: Influenced
March 22, 2008 07:56AM
Iggy Pop, Ian McCulloch and Ian Curtis were all strongly influenced by Jim Morrison. They're great, the Lizard King was a putz.

The Stranglers were also descendants of but greatly superior to the Doors.



Post Edited (03-22-08 10:03)
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satchmykels
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 22, 2008 03:21PM

>
> Dream Syndicate more then the Velvets?
>


Yo La Tengo
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Jermoe
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 22, 2008 09:54PM
REM; Patti Smith
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totaji
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 23, 2008 07:45AM
Even though I like Bo Diddley, Chuck Berry, John Lee Hooker, and Muddy Waters I've listened to the Stones, T.Rex, the Dolls and the Beach Boys alot more. Same goes with the Beach Boys and Phil Spector.
I totally agree with Jim Morrison having better successors.
I really love the Modern Lovers first album and some Only Ones, but to my ears I don't even like them a fraction as much as VU.
I like Gram Parsons alot more than Hank.
I like Miles Davis' Electric funk-jazz-rock more than Hendrix (but I don't think that counts).

I like Bowie alot more than anybody he has influenced. Same with the Beatles (unless you include VU and Bowie-they both had a strong Beatles influence. But who didn't?)
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Shizzle
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 23, 2008 08:37AM
I agree with a lot of what you say here except that the VU had a strong Beatles influence. How so? Run Run Run, Sister Ray and White Light/White Heat couldn't be any further away from I Want To Hold Your Hand, Love Me Do and I Saw Her Standing There.

Reed has also stated that he never really liked the Beatles and Lennon's solo stuff only a bit more (Jealous Guy, etc.). The VU's influences were decidely more off-the-beaten path than those within a pop context unless you include Dylan. Which brings the original question in this thread full circle as an artist (Reed) who surpassed an influence (Dylan).

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totaji
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 23, 2008 09:35AM
Get Back is a definite precursor to Walk on the Wild Side. John Cale recently noted the Beatles use of distortion on Revolver had an influence on him and Reed during the VU days. Lonesome Cowboy Bill could have came from the White Album.
Many people have noted that the "experimental" part of VU left with Cale and I tend to agree. Loaded seams very Beatlesque. Try listening to it in those terms.
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Shizzle
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 23, 2008 10:38AM
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here as I concur with TP's take on the Velvets in this instance:

"The band's first album may have come on a bit cute with its Andy Warhol-designed banana cover — indeed, patron Warhol's name (he also "produced") was splashed around like a talisman — but singer/guitarist Lou Reed's tough songs and the band's equally tough playing owed nothing to nobody."

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M. Johnson
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 23, 2008 01:40PM
Gotta go with Shizzle on this one.

Comparing the Velvets to the Beatles is pointless.

You could say of pretty much ANY popular song written between 1945-1975 that it "could have came from the White Album."

If the term Beatlesque is to have any meaning at all it can't include sounds that didn't, to a greater degree, originate with the boys. If I record an album which has one track that sounds like George Formby, and another track that sounds like Buck Owens, you can't call me Beatlesque.

The Velvets don't sound any more like the Beatles than the Beatles sound like the Rolling Stones. They all SHARED influences as well as melodic and experimental ambitions.

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totaji
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 23, 2008 02:51PM
Please listen to What Goes On from Rubber Soul and What Goes On from The Velvet Underground back to back.
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M. Johnson
"What Goes On" vs. "What Goes On"
March 23, 2008 04:41PM
Done. Listened to them back to back.

And they sound nothing alike to me. RUBBER SOUL's is a honky-tonk ditty, whereas the Velvet's is a churning, frothy rocker.

I can in good faith say that if someone listens to those tracks and honestly feels that the comparison is so strong that Lou Reed was unable to write that song without the influence of the Beatles, well, then, I have a fundamentally different experience of music than they do. When I hear the Velvet Underground, I hear music that could have easily been written even if the Beatles had never existed.
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totaji
Re: "What Goes On" vs. "What Goes On"
March 23, 2008 05:24PM
I didn't mean to make a production about it. My experience is that no matter how original something is, it built on something else. In many ways. We are talking influence here, not exactness.
Does any Iggy song sound exactly like any Morrison song?
I'll back off though.
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Aitch
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 23, 2008 06:18PM
When I was 15 I thought E&TBM were the bees knees.
I'd have to say I was dissapointed when I found out McCullough liked Jimbo so much.
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Delvin
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 24, 2008 07:34AM
Agree with Reno, regarding the artists that Morrison influenced. But then, it takes effort to not improve on the Doors, IMO.
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breno
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 24, 2008 08:46AM
Which makes the Cult that much sadder.
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rebelwithoutaclue
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 24, 2008 08:47AM
i never hated the doors but i just noticed that i own over 10 thousand cds and not one doors cd. for some reason i am particularly proud of this fact as i am a fan of preety much everything else mainstream.

im trying to think of the replacments being better than some of their influneces but their influences are mostly a combo of pop punk and basic rock n roll. i cant really pinpoint their punk influences but they definitely surpassed them in songwriting skills and was much more pop and stones derivitive than other punk bands and became something else without totally taking the aspect of punk out of their music.
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mats84
Re: Influenced
March 24, 2008 04:43PM
One of the things that made the 'Mats so beloved to me is they were a combo of every band I really liked prior to hearing them - I was literally turned on to them by someone condescendingly saying to me "yeah that band sounds like a cross between the Faces, and Johnny Thunders and all that other crap you like".

I hear Peter Perrett in Westerberg's punctured romanticism, definitely the Stones and Faces, Chilton of course, the Heartbreakers (early on) and Thunders So Alone could also be considered a prototype for their mid-period albums.

Throw in a dash of stuff like NRBQ and mix it up with 16 beers and there you have it.

Really their influences were impeccable.



Post Edited (03-24-08 20:55)
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Heff
quantity over quality
March 25, 2008 11:08AM
> i never hated the doors but i just noticed that i own over 10
> thousand cds and not one doors cd.

I'm curious, rebel - you really have over 10,000 CDs? That would average out to 500 a year for 20 years or 333 a year for 30 years. I've been buying cds/albums/cassettes for over 25 years and I figure I may have 1000 to 1500. Does everyone else have that much? How can one remember everything? Or is this going to devolve into a Wilt Chamberlain thing?
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diskojoe
Re: quantity over quality
March 25, 2008 11:31AM
I not sure how many CDs I have, but I do know that I have 50+ CD box sets (the latest one being the Faces one)
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rebelwithoutaclue
Re: quantity over quality
March 25, 2008 06:19PM
i exaggerated a little bit but i counted and its over 6 thousand .
that is a combo of albums cassettes and bootlegs.
bootlegs and live concerts i have downloaded.
i might have 100 springsteen shows and 100 dylans.
i also have inhereted from friends n family
the quanity gets bigger when a band breaks up and everybody puts out solo albums. i have also bought as a kid records for 50 cents a piece at garage saless.
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satchmykels
Re: quantity over quality
March 26, 2008 03:03AM

> How can one remember everything? Or is this
> going to devolve into a Wilt Chamberlain thing?


wilt couldn't double check before ordering online, like i can. but i'm sure he had some other shit going for him...
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hoip chiggs
Re: influenced by
March 29, 2008 03:32PM
I think Mazzy Star is just as good musically as the Velvet Underground. The only problem the VU had was Lou's subject matter. It was disturbing for its time, but it got dated really fast. I mean, do heroin addicted S&M leather freaks STILL shock you?



Post Edited (03-29-08 21:42)
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Delvin
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 25, 2008 11:54AM
I haven't taken inventory lately, but I'd say I have at least 2,000 CDs in my collection.
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breno
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 25, 2008 12:22PM
I refuse to count or even estimate how many CDs I have. Makes me sick to my stomach to think I probably could've paid off my house by now if it weren't for the cursed things.
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STEVE
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 25, 2008 06:13PM
ten thousand?
this person can read minds.
Easily, I bet choo.\

Not that I am jealous or anything, I have a great five hundred or so.

Not much but i'm getting there.

And if by choice, 331/3 speed.
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madisdadi
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 29, 2008 09:23AM
reason 22 why the women are scarce on here
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Delvin
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 29, 2008 09:59PM
> Do heroin addicted S&M leather freaks STILL shock you?

Only the ones who canvas my neighborhood, going door to door and passing out pamphlets.

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ratboy
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 30, 2008 07:34AM
Such as: this?

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hoip chiggs
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
March 30, 2008 12:22PM
LOL! Marilyn Manson can't scare anybody! Even without the Onion!
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R. Totale
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
April 02, 2008 05:29PM
> Do you love any band more than their obvious primary influence

The first (and only good) Electric Light Orchestra LP was supposedly all about expanding on Eleanor Rigby, but I listened to it more than I have any Beatles records.
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carmen
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
April 10, 2008 12:06AM
what bands are "Influenced "By", But Better "Than" " the clash. my 14 yr old wants to know.
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Aitch
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
April 10, 2008 01:13AM
"what bands are "Influenced "By", But Better "Than" " the clash. my 14 yr old wants to know."

Don't anyone say The Alarm
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jothoma
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
April 10, 2008 03:47PM
One could make a case for Rancid. I wouldn't rate them better than the Clash because that bar was set way to highg, however, if your 14 year old is a fan of the Clash, especially the early years, then I am sure he would take to Rancid too...
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breno
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
April 10, 2008 04:02PM
I suppose one could say U2. They definitely cite the Clash as an influence. I do NOT think they are better in any way, shape or form. But some people might.

I think M.I.A. currently shows a huge Clash influence, filtered through a subsequent 20 years of hip-hop. Again, not better in my opinion, but a credible answer to the question, anyhow.

That's a rough question, though. I can't bring myself to consider anyone better than the Clash.
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mats84
Re: Influenced
April 10, 2008 07:23PM
I think to a lot of kids who came across the Libertines first, they are "preferrable" to the Clash (better might not be the right word).

The topicality of the Clash can come across as dated and seem like preachiness I think the further you're removed from their time and the context.

The Libertines / Clash comparisons were somewhat off-base to me anyway, the Libertines always evoked more of the Jam in my mind.



Post Edited (04-10-08 21:25)
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M. Johnson
M.I.A.? Cut the crap.
April 10, 2008 09:54PM
I detest M.I.A., so wouldn't like to hear her cite The Clash as a primary influence.

Hopefully it's more the case that she draws from some of the same multicultural musical/cultural streams The Clash did, without seeing herself as any kind of heir or acolyte.



Post Edited (04-11-08 00:21)
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Jermoe
Re: M.I.A.? Cut the crap.
April 13, 2008 06:34PM
I'm not likely to go out of my way to listen to M.I.A., but on one of the three or four songs I've heard by her–"Paper Planes"– she liberally samples "Straight to Hell"...

Not that it would change your opinion of M.I.A., but she's certainly made the "influenced by" part of the equation fairly clear.
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hoip chiggs
Re: M.I.A.? Cut the crap.
April 22, 2008 09:33PM
Remember the days when MIA or some other three capital letters meant one thing: hardcore? MDC, DOA, and others....

I'm sobbin, man, I'm sobbin.
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satchmykels
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
April 10, 2008 08:37PM


> what bands are "Influenced "By", But Better "Than" " the clash.
> my 14 yr old wants to know.


billy bragg
the pogues
pick a billy childish band
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madisdadi
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
April 11, 2008 08:57AM
Gang of Four
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Delvin
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
April 14, 2008 02:47PM
I don't think that liberally sampling an artist necessarily equates to being influenced by said artist ... or at least, not to being influenced in any credible way. All it really says is that the one doing the sampling liked the riff or hook enough to appropriate it from the artist who came up with it in the first place.

Yeah, I know ... this opens up a whole other can of worms, that's probably been covered repeatedly in this forum.

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jim green
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
April 25, 2008 06:41PM
The groups I grew up with (considering my 20s still part of growing up) resonate for me better than either their successors or their predecessors, and I suspect that's true for most of us. After awhile I could appreciate artists who influenced them, sometimes nearly as much as my heroes - but often in a way that's more intellectual than visceral.

So I can sympathize with someone who finds Mazzy Star hits a sweeter spot for them than the Velvets. On top of which, in a day when recording was still fairly primitive, the first couple of Velvets albums were particularly poorly recorded, which can be off-putting.

However, I can't imagine I'll ever reckon a single Mazzy Star song, aside possilby from "Fade Into You" (and not really even that) can measure up to "I'll Be Your Mirror," "Femme Fatale," or most of the third album - softer, quieter material which, Hoip, is not about lurid deviance or addiction.
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hoip chiggs
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
April 30, 2008 06:47PM
Yes, I have all the Velvets albums, and I still enjoy listening to them today. And Lou covered all bases, from the deviant to the divine. Though you have to admit, the shock value wore off on what Lou considered deviant at that time. But that doesn't take away from their accomplishments and influence. I basically like playing Mazzy with the Velvets; they complement each other.
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dkhazzam
Re: Influenced "By", But Better "Than"
April 27, 2008 07:25AM
The Rutles are WAY BETTER than the those Beatle guys!



[buddylove.us]
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