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Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame

Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 13, 2005 03:22PM
I was just browsing through the "Hall of Fame" thread.

First off, let me say that I pretty much agree with all the arguments against hero-worship, deification, etc. It's rock & roll, and the real "hall of fame" is your local bar, where some snot-nosed kids are (it is to be hoped) making a racket.

That said, the Hall of Fame is what it is. The museum itself (in Cleveland) is fascinating, and too big to see in a single day. Definitely worth a look, though, if you're in the area.

In terms of the actual "Honor Roll" though... again, whatever you think of it, it's out there. And someday, when rock & roll has vanished from the radio completely and some kid is wondering what the big deal was (this might be coming up any day now, actually), one of the resources he or she will discover is the official list of Hall of Fame members.

And what really bothers me is that in recent years, it seems like the selection process has focused almost entirely on commercial success and not on any kind of historical importance.

Go over to the official website and check out the inductees: [www.rockhall.com]. The early years, when artists from the fifties and early sixties were being added, really do represent the most influential musicians of that period.

It probably doesn't hurt that most of these artists were also successfully commercially. The music biz was quite a different animal back then, and few artists would ever have a chance to influence much of anyone unless they had a radio hit.

That said, I'm sure there are plenty of obscure regional artists (e.g.) who are left off the list, but my point is that for someone curious about the history of rock music, the inductees from the first five or six years of the Hall of Fame would really provide a comprehensive overview of the music of that time.

Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the inductees from the last several years. Jackson Browne? Bob Seger? Aesthetic judgements aside, what significant influence did either of them have? What new ground did either of them break?

Of course the Sex Pistols haven't been inducted. Neither, it should be pointed out, have Black Sabbath or Judas Priest -- two of the most insanely influential bands of the 70s -- or the Stooges, or the MC5, or a lot of less well-known acts.

It's true that a small group of influential punk/new wave bands have been inducted (the Clash, Elvis, the Ramones, et al). But as the window of eligibility is moves further and further into the 80s, we're going to see more second-generation (and often second-rate) bands and, I fear, fewer of the truly influential bands.

Are we someday going to see the Cure inducted, but never Joy Division? Perhaps Duran Duran, but never Ultravox? How about Wire? Or Gang of Four? These bands helped lay the foundation for much of what is now known as "Eighties Rock" in the late 70s. Will they ever see any recognition from the rock "establishment"?

Should they even care? Sure that's a valid question and the idea of a rock "establishment" is STILL (as it was at the beginning of this screed) a silly idea, but it's nonetheless a reality.

I guess my ultimate point is that in the early days, the Hall of Fame really did a decent job of tracing the birth of rock & roll -- they didn't just start with the Stones or Led Zeppelin. But they're failing miserably in tracing the GROWTH of rock in the 70s.

Is it worth expending any energy to try to rectify this situation? Should we be trying to exert influence on the Hall of Fame? Should we start an alternate Hall of Fame? Or should we just post long messages on the internet bitching about it? eye rolling smiley

Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 13, 2005 06:04PM
seger stays, billy joel out.

(i used to bitch about seger too: well, i amnow the proud owner of Mongrel, RG Man, and the early singles [and noah, 7, brand new morning, and beautiful loser] and at his best he was ferocious, committed, rocking, and an astute critic of the times; oh, i'm not saying he was studs terkel--a mid west voice he resembles--only that when the band cranked it they were the equal of the mc5 and the rationals, 2 detroit groups that EVERYONE loves.)


but IT should be talked about. so cool...

and no, J Division and Gang of 4 will never make it to my great sadness.
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 14, 2005 02:19AM
That's just it, it's NOT the indie hall of fame. True, U2 are as bad as it gets but I'm taken aback (in a good way) by the induction of Pretenders, Clash, Costello, T. heads and especially Ramones - all in the last few years. Satisfying choices - especially in a list that MUST BE somewhat compromising.

Stooges and Sabbath? I'm sure they'll make it.
It is what it is.
& it's in Cleveland. Would you even WANT an indie hall there?



Post Edited (04-09-07 17:07)
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 14, 2005 03:12AM
Paganizer;

True, it's not an "indie" hall of fame, but I'm talking about the bands that influenced the bands that later were in the mainstream (The Cure, Duran Duran, etc.). Surely, in terms of influence, an argument could be made that Joy Division or Ultravox deserve to be in the "Rock Hall" as much as Leadbelly or Bill Monroe.
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 14, 2005 03:01PM
An "Indie Hall of Fame" would be kind of a contradiction in terms, wouldn't it be? I mean, it can be argued that a large part of the point of being "indie" is to steer clear of the institutionalization that plagues the music business -- either because you recognize the risks involved by courting the beast, or because the beast has turned its back on you already.

If there was an Indie Hall of Fame, it'd fuel even more arguments about who deserves to be inducted than the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame does. Hell, a lot of worthy artists would be regarded, by a lot of their fans, as having lost their indie credibility just by being inducted. And those fans would be bitching about it in their internet postings.

Some good food for thought in this thread. (And thank you, Michael, for putting in some good words for Seger.)
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 14, 2005 05:14PM
I'm with ya Scratchie! Joy Division's influence is hard to even measure.

I'm not sure an Indie Hall would be a contradiction*. My dream Indie Hall would be a smaller affair with little coverage. 'Indie' means smaller scales.

*Though I completely get what ur saying.



Post Edited (04-09-07 17:08)
ira
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 14, 2005 07:51PM
"This way to the pigfuck wing....math rock is down that corridor to the left.....
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 15, 2005 03:10PM
"And the special Clan of Xymox exhibit is coming up! A new addition to the Hall of Fame, by demand of the Clan's fan."

(Jeez, where is that guy when you need him.)
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 15, 2005 06:55PM
You'll always find me in the Shoegaze room. What I can't figure out is why they put Power-pop in the basement! It's all good though cuz the Sonic-ethereal section's interactive exhibit is worth the trip alone. Love those fractals!

Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 17, 2005 06:46AM
Will Thomas Jefferson Slave Apartments ever be inducted? As I've said before, G.G. Allin is now eligible. Recognize!

To me, the idea of having an institution to immortalize those who reject institutionalism (at least when they're young) is silly. I've been there (unfortunately, I lived in Cleveland for a year; fortunately, I wrote for a newspaper that let me write a "Who Deserves to be in the RnR HoF but Isn't" article).

Bob Seger is a tough case. I agree that his early years are too often overlooked ("2 + 2 =," I'm looking at you), but he got so goddamn lame. I mean, Jesus Christ, he seemed to repudiate everything he stood for. "Like a Rock?" Please refer to the Briefs' "Silver Bullet" and its refrain "Kill Bob Seger right now!" When I played the early stuff as a DJ, people just couldn't believe it was the same lame-o. "Twooo plus two is on mah miiiind!" What happened, Bob? Please, get back together with the Last Herd or something ...
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 17, 2005 09:57PM
Butthole Surfers, Jesus & Mary Chain, The Fall, Husker, Smiths, Sonic Youth and for God's sakes the Pixies.



Post Edited (04-09-07 17:09)
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 18, 2005 01:03AM
the 25 year rule prohit s a lot of that greatness, but Roxy/eno/ferry would be nice and fall/xtc/mekons--all 3 eliogfible this year would be great.


that influence question of course is pertinent but there are bands that i love that influence is out of the question and i would never denigrate their hard work, weird stances, obsessive visions, intransigent aethetics coz of their paucity of succeeding influences:

Nina Simone
Residents
swamp dogg
soft machine/robert wyatt
minutemen
roky
gene pitney
bonzo DB
jimmy brown
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 20, 2005 07:57PM
forgot Minutemen.



Post Edited (04-09-07 17:10)
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
May 04, 2005 04:14PM
keith levene
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 29, 2005 02:08AM
www.kayneevol.com

I just took a nice trip to the Hall where I finally got to listen to all of my discography(minus a few only the bootleggers have) I went armed with a golden guitar that I believed briefly belonged to Stevie Ray Vaughn. story of the guitar. Did it have this History? And should I give it to Brad from Moth. It is my golden ticket!



HIGBEE/KAYNEEVOL underground like nightcrawlers. Dress for his night out cuz he's such a night owl. In the name of Pete Rose and Evel Knievel!! Let this one ROCK!
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
April 30, 2005 12:51PM
Bob Seger shouldn't be allowed to even visit the RNR Hall of Fame. An interesting upcoming test case will be the Replacements because they sort of are definitive of an era - Husker Du, Minutemen, etc. have no shot because they (unfairly) aren't noted in a mainstream sense as much nowadays. The Replacements have a hand in alot that followed even if it's not as a true direct influence ("90's alternative", "alt-country", "emo", "New garage")Obviously REM will get in, but does that mean no other "Amerindie" band gets in between REM and (I guess) the Pixies?

Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
May 01, 2005 07:04PM
Wipe your feet on the mats! Of course, they get in I smashed a guitar outside of the Paul Westerberg concert the other day!

-Something to Husker



HIGBEE/KAYNEEVOL underground like nightcrawlers. Dress for his night out cuz he's such a night owl. In the name of Pete Rose and Evel Knievel!! Let this one ROCK!
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
May 01, 2005 08:55PM
Speaking of Westerberg.....I caught him last night in Philly and he (and his band) positively kicked ass. A 30+ song set of 'Mats classics, well chosen solo material and cool covers. Ira should update the Westerberg entry to cover his good work on Vagrant since 2002 - great to see him straighten out his solo career after a shaky start.

Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
May 02, 2005 03:53PM
"As Far as I Know". ok, I'm feeling it. The early stuff was a bit shaky. What else is crucial from the current catalog?



Post Edited (04-09-07 17:11)
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
May 02, 2005 10:13PM
STEREO/MONO 2 disc set (2002) - Stereo is a solid mostly acoustic record , Mono recorded under his Grandpaboy alias and included as a "bonus" disc in the Stereo album package is a ballsy garage record; COME FEEL ME TREMBLE (2003) - mixes up the ballads and rockers and includes his most convincing post-Mats rock song "Pine Box"; FOLKER (2004) is the weakest of the bunch, more folky-pop in sound, significant filler but worthy due to some fantastic high points. I'd say MONO & COME FEEL ME TREMBLE are the pick of the litter.

Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
May 02, 2005 10:17PM
Also, DEAD MAN SHAKE (2003) on the Fat Possum label recorded as Grandpaboy. A blues record that can be alot of fun if you aren't a blues purist and have had a few beers under your belt.



Post Edited (05-03-05 17:55)
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
May 03, 2005 03:04AM
MONO's good, FOLKER's great...STEREO's free, haha, don't bother with the other two.
Re: Some thoughts on the R&R Hall of Fame
May 03, 2005 10:01PM
www.kayneevol.com


Ouy Rauk my ruraldt!



HIGBEE/KAYNEEVOL underground like nightcrawlers. Dress for his night out cuz he's such a night owl. In the name of Pete Rose and Evel Knievel!! Let this one ROCK!
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